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for me that's a sign of movement

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immaturity if we're going to sit around

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and who's more oppressed

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black people female people

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this per what what are we doing

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these are qualitative differences when

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you reduce

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qualitative difference to quantity it's

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an old mathematical and philosophic

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problem there's something going on there

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that you ought to interrogate

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i want you to know that this is not a

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debate i've watched almost all of your

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interviews like debate debate

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heated debate with marxist like this

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these are questions

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i have i think of me as a fool i don't

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know much

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you're a scholar i

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i'm just a filmmaker just a humble

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obsequious filmmaker

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i'll ask you questions and peter will do

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the same

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you do know i hope that the scholar

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is exactly described honestly as you've

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just described yourself

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it's just that the scholar functions in

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an institutional arrangement

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where he has to or she now has to

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position himself herself um

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as some kind of expert some kind of

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raised being and that's you know

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if you have some compassion it's

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something that the academic

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fell into it shouldn't be blamed on the

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academic

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i mean granted they abuse it and they

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exploit it and all the rest they do

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most of them do and that's been my

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experience

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and i've been an academic all my life

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but

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they're not the author of their own

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sad position and they often

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stumble in their own personal lives and

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in their academic environments

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because that posturing as the scholar

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who knows

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is a heavy burden and it it doesn't work

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well

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and it even the scholars would be better

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off

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if they could stop that fakery and

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get on with talking honestly about their

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ambivalences their uncertainties

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the parts of the story they can't tell

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because they don't know

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instead of looking upon that as like you

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know

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some defect that they have to mask

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find it on opening for an interesting

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conversation it's sad

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very sad but then there's no tenure or

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maybe that's why there's ten

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that's right and then if you're unsure

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you know the tendency is to play

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one-upsmanship games with other

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academics and to utilize your power

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position relative to students

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to you to work off on them to act out

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your own

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confidence

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which then in turn because the students

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always pick it up

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makes them turn off to education and i

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think in part

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become an audience for you all right man

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peter all right so my name is

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uh peter guinos and i'm here

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with kirchio mongol kurt

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uh filmmaker and head of

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better left unsaid we are here today

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with dr wolf marx's professor

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who is going to help us shed some

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clarity

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on some of the ideas circulating around

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marxism both

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in the past and in our times

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so my first question uh for you dr wolf

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is uh do you mind just starting by

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telling us

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in the audience a little bit about

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yourself your past where you're coming

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from

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and what you're working on now what

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you're working towards

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okay i am the

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child of two immigrants who came to the

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united states from europe

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my father was french my mother was

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german

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i was born in the only place my father

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could get a job as an immigrant when he

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came here

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which was as a steel worker in

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youngstown ohio which is where i was

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born

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um i grew up speaking mostly french and

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german because that was

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those were the languages of my home

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i really only started learning english

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when they

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dropped me off at my kindergarten to

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start

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and i'm very grateful that they had the

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wisdom to

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teach me these languages so that i grew

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up basically being

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trilingual which for a child is very

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easy to do

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and much easier than learning languages

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later on

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um but as the child and i was the first

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child of immigrants

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who had fled europe because of the war

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and who kind of had the death all around

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them as part of their lives

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there was a pretty heavy burden on me as

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a child

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to fulfill the life

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ambitions that had been cut short for my

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parents

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because they had to leave the countries

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and the positions and the careers

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that they had had over there

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so i was early on oriented towards being

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a proper achiever and since my mother

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was german

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achievement always meant physical

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as well as mental capability and ability

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so

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i always played sports as well as doing

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academic work and being a good student

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i had to be a good student because if i

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came home with anything else

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both my mother and father would begin

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tearing up

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uh i just say that to give you an idea

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of the level of psychic pressure

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there was so i ended up um

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being a very good student and an athlete

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and i played the violin in the orchestra

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the whole bit

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um and in those days

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uh harvard university was making an

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experiment

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and bringing in people who i think

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normally would not have been brought

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there so i went to harvard as an

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undergraduate

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um where i was told why would you not

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normally have been brought there you

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said that you were a great student a

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great athlete

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uh my experience at harvard where i

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spent four years

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well let me explain i went to harvard

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and when i finished at harvard i went to

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stanford and when i finished at stanford

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i went to yale

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so i am i spent 10 years of my life

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in this rarefied atmosphere of the elite

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universities of this country and i know

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both because of what i learned there and

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what i have learned

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umpteen times since that this

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is a highly stratified society

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who sends its children to the same

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universities they went to

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et cetera et cetera et cetera and i'm

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not part of that my parents had nothing

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to do with that they came from another

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part of the world

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i didn't go to harvard by the way

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because it was harvard my parents didn't

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know what harvard was

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the guidance counselor in the high

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school the public high school i went

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to thought i should apply to harvard and

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i did but that was not my first choice

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at all i wanted to go to where a friend

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of mine had gone

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a small college called oberlin in in

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ohio

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that i had visited and loved but harvard

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gave me more money and my parents had no

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money

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so my father said well this is easy

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you're going to harvard so

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i went to harvard because it was cheap

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for me

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given the fellowship and all the crap i

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got

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place was and i've learned since

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how it works but people like me do not

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normally end up

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at a place like harvard that really the

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fact that i was good in school or played

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football or any of the other stuff

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really uh very nice but it's not it's

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not what happens

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and partly it's not even harvard that

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rejects you it's that you don't even

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think

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of applying there it's just not part of

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your universe and it wouldn't have been

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of mine

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had it not been for the guidance

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counselor's

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uh desire that someone from our high

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school get to harvard

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and i think that year i was their best

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shot anyway i went okay

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let's let's get to your current work and

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then what you're working toward

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okay um i didn't like how this country

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treated my parents as immigrants they

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were quite grateful that they were alive

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and they gave the united states credit

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for being alive so

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they weren't the critics i was but i saw

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what

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parents led

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and i didn't blame them i blamed the

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system

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that was an early insight of mine and i

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i stayed with it

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ever since i gave myself the task

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understand how and why this system did

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what it did

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to my parents and and the people around

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them that i

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got to know so i've been a critic

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of the system for as long as i've been

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more or less of an adult and

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i found it an interesting challenge that

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harvard

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and stanford and yale did their level

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best

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to persuade me otherwise and i took what

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they were trying to teach me seriously i

252
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didn't dismiss it i wasn't

253
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glad handing what they were offering

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but they didn't persuade me they really

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didn't

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and what i also saw which has been a

257
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very important

258
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shaping of my life i saw

259
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naked fear i saw it over and over again

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at harvard at stanford and at yale

261
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and here's what i mean i would raise a

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question

263
00:10:31,350 --> 00:10:29,040
or other students it wasn't just me that

264
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had something to do with the critique

265
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of capitalism and i could see the way

266
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any human being can see it in another

267
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the fear in my instructor's

268
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faces and i'm including here the

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instructors that i like who were good

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teachers

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and the instructors that i didn't

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particularly like who weren't such good

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teachers

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and this is around 1970s 1960s yeah it

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was in the 1986 mostly the 1960s i mean

276
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my basic education is tonight

277
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in my period of going to the ivy leagues

278
00:11:05,509 --> 00:11:03,279
these three schools

279
00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:05,519
that's the 1960s okay and you attribute

280
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,000
that fear to what

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00:11:11,829 --> 00:11:10,800
uh the cold war mccarthyism whatever you

282
00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:11,839
want to call it

283
00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:15,279
my professors had two problems basically

284
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the first problem was they often didn't

285
00:11:22,069 --> 00:11:21,200
know the answer to the question that i

286
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asked

287
00:11:26,870 --> 00:11:24,800
they simply didn't know and you know in

288
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:26,880
the academic world as you've probably

289
00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:28,000
discovered

290
00:11:33,269 --> 00:11:31,120
it's very painful for a scholar to say

291
00:11:34,310 --> 00:11:33,279
i don't know as if that were some

292
00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:34,320
fundamental

293
00:11:38,949 --> 00:11:37,360
defect that they should be ashamed about

294
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:38,959
so they were fearful because they did

295
00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:40,800
not want in front of a classroom of

296
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:41,360
young

297
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:43,920
folks like me to be in the position of

298
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:44,560
saying

299
00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:47,200
i don't know but they didn't know

300
00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:47,680
because

301
00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:50,880
marxism was so toxic

302
00:11:54,389 --> 00:11:53,360
to them in their environment at that

303
00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:54,399
time

304
00:12:02,150 --> 00:11:57,519
that it went to the point of not reading

305
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:02,160
the books not learning the arguments

306
00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:05,920
or the other kind of fear uh was just oh

307
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:07,279
my god don't

308
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:10,480
i don't want to go there this is

309
00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:13,519
dangerous material please ask

310
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:16,480
somebody else please go somewhere else

311
00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:18,000
with your question

312
00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:20,720
and whatever they said to me their faces

313
00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:21,600
were like

314
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:25,040
um tableaus of anxiety

315
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,079
and difficulty and i you know like any

316
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,320
young person i think with half a

317
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:33,360
bit of curiosity to his or her soul

318
00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:35,760
i wanted to understand what's going on

319
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:36,720
here

320
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:39,920
what what's happening why is this

321
00:12:44,069 --> 00:12:41,760
every time i bring up something about

322
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:44,079
marxism or socialism

323
00:12:47,509 --> 00:12:46,959
or communism which by the way were front

324
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:47,519
page

325
00:12:50,949 --> 00:12:50,399
news in the daily newspapers all the

326
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:50,959
time

327
00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:55,200
on here

328
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:57,600
and then i began to ask questions and i

329
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:59,279
began to learn

330
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:01,040
so let me let me make a simple statement

331
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:03,120
that summarizes it

332
00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:05,200
i spent 10 years of my life at harvard

333
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:07,120
stanford and yale

334
00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:10,160
one professor in all those ten years

335
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:14,160
assigned us one

336
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:17,680
passages from karl marx's capital

337
00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:21,200
his major adult work of analyzing

338
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:22,720
capitalism

339
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:25,839
one professor during one semester

340
00:13:30,629 --> 00:13:27,760
happened to be at stanford by the way

341
00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:30,639
not at harvard and not at yale

342
00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:33,680
and i have one ba from harvard

343
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:36,320
three master's degrees from stanford and

344
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:36,959
yale

345
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:42,000
there is no excuse

346
00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:45,519
intellectually or any other way for such

347
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:49,120
a lopsided crazy

348
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:52,000
curriculum that's not about analysis

349
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:54,000
that's not about priorities

350
00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:57,360
that's about political fear

351
00:14:03,189 --> 00:14:01,120
career fear these professors did not

352
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:03,199
want and if by the way if you were to

353
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,240
ask me

354
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:06,720
might some of them have been sympathetic

355
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:07,680
the answer is

356
00:14:12,389 --> 00:14:09,760
they might have been but they were so

357
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:12,399
scared that i'll never know and i can't

358
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:13,680
answer your question

359
00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:16,800
if you have that in your mind by the way

360
00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:19,120
the united states we're living in right

361
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:20,079
now

362
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:24,240
is itself the product of an entire

363
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:27,519
half century of self

364
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:30,720
censorship that makes it impossible for

365
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:31,760
large numbers

366
00:14:36,069 --> 00:14:34,880
of perfectly intelligent uh human beings

367
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:36,079
in this country

368
00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:39,120
to have a clue as to what the critique

369
00:14:43,509 --> 00:14:40,720
of capitalism means

370
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:43,519
around the world the power it has the

371
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,160
influence

372
00:14:47,509 --> 00:14:47,120
it has i can't get it it's a mystery

373
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:47,519
that

374
00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:50,320
continues to overwhelm them okay could

375
00:14:52,870 --> 00:14:51,440
it also be

376
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:52,880
that as you mentioned in one of your

377
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:56,000
other interviews marx is so

378
00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:58,399
has already influenced our critiques of

379
00:15:01,590 --> 00:15:00,079
capitalism to such a degree that we

380
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,600
don't necessarily need to go back to the

381
00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:03,760
source for example in physics we never

382
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:05,120
read newton

383
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:08,240
we don't read archimedes we know about

384
00:15:11,670 --> 00:15:10,000
what newton has influenced we don't go

385
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:11,680
to the principy of mathematica

386
00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:13,600
in biology you don't read about lamarck

387
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:15,040
because that's outdated although you

388
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:16,560
might hear

389
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:18,000
about why lamarck's theories are

390
00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:19,680
incorrect you don't go to the source so

391
00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:21,760
could it not also be that

392
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:24,560
it that would make sense if the great

393
00:15:30,069 --> 00:15:26,240
marxist thinkers

394
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:30,079
since marks were on the reading list

395
00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:33,839
but they're absent also part of the loss

396
00:15:37,509 --> 00:15:36,720
of not reading the original which by the

397
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:37,519
way

398
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:40,320
isn't that old you know marx's mature

399
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:41,199
writing

400
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:45,040
is 150 years old it's not inaccessible

401
00:15:49,509 --> 00:15:47,759
it's not you know from another universe

402
00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:49,519
but even put that aside

403
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:52,000
i could give you a list of 20 or 30 or

404
00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:53,199
50

405
00:15:57,269 --> 00:15:55,600
marxists who came afterwards who

406
00:15:59,910 --> 00:15:57,279
developed the thought

407
00:16:00,550 --> 00:15:59,920
often critically dropping this focusing

408
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:00,560
on that

409
00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:02,639
extending it over there those are not on

410
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:04,399
the reading list either

411
00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:07,519
because the topic is the problem

412
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:10,959
the whole approach it it's like dealing

413
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:11,680
with

414
00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:14,959
childishness among academics i don't

415
00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:16,639
want to see it i don't want to

416
00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:18,880
hear it i don't want to know it's there

417
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:20,560
and the end result is you don't know

418
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:22,000
anything about it

419
00:16:26,150 --> 00:16:24,720
look i have the following problem as an

420
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,160
academic

421
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:28,880
i had to learn neoclassical economics

422
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:30,160
which is the dominant

423
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,720
paradigm in this country i had to learn

424
00:16:36,949 --> 00:16:34,480
that because i had to teach it

425
00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:36,959
and i had to get my exams passed

426
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:38,000
properly

427
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:40,240
and i load keynesian economics which is

428
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:41,120
the only

429
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:43,199
slightly critical approach that is

430
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:44,399
allowed

431
00:16:48,790 --> 00:16:47,279
so i can talk to my colleagues about

432
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:48,800
what we share

433
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:50,720
but the minute i start talking to them

434
00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:52,720
about marxian economics

435
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:55,120
they don't know what to do it becomes a

436
00:17:00,389 --> 00:16:56,880
difficult conversation

437
00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:00,399
because they become at best the pupil

438
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:03,440
and i become the teacher and that's not

439
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,280
the relationship they want with me they

440
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:07,360
want the relationship of colleagues

441
00:17:10,949 --> 00:17:10,079
not as teacher student and so the

442
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:10,959
conversation

443
00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:14,079
dribbles off or dies or even takes an

444
00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:16,079
unpleasant turn

445
00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:18,160
so i've learned as people like me have

446
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:20,559
had to learn in the united states

447
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:23,600
to talk the marxism in a different

448
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:24,640
language

449
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:27,439
so that they can hear it and can maybe

450
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:28,960
process a bit of it

451
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:31,760
instead of having the visceral reaction

452
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:33,840
which they mostly have

453
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:35,679
not realizing it's to their own

454
00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:37,360
detriment

455
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:39,760
the creation of these parallel languages

456
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:42,240
to circumnavigate the center's impotence

457
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,160
in discussing these topics is

458
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:46,720
something that's not unfamiliar to our

459
00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:47,679
time

460
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:50,720
uh i'm curious do you think that

461
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:53,760
uh these the creation of these taboos

462
00:17:58,870 --> 00:17:54,960
around marxism

463
00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:58,880
in the 1960s were simply because of cold

464
00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:00,320
war tensions or does it

465
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:03,200
highlight an institutional problem in

466
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:04,559
our education system

467
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:08,240
in universities or some other aspect of

468
00:18:14,310 --> 00:18:10,400
our education system

469
00:18:17,789 --> 00:18:14,320
well no because the the irony is before

470
00:18:20,710 --> 00:18:17,799
the cold war sets in that is before

471
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:20,720
1945 to be precise

472
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:23,520
you did have across the american

473
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:24,640
academic

474
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:27,760
spectrum quite a few

475
00:18:34,789 --> 00:18:31,200
seriously critical voices

476
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:34,799
yes they were not as freely allowed in

477
00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:35,840
academia

478
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:37,919
as they should have been i would be the

479
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:39,440
first to say that

480
00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:42,960
but there was nothing like the wholesale

481
00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:46,480
silencing that you had in the aftermath

482
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:48,400
of 1945.

483
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:51,360
i'll give you an example and i'll do it

484
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:53,120
from economics because that's the field

485
00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:55,600
i know one of the great economic

486
00:19:02,029 --> 00:18:58,000
economists of the 20th century

487
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:02,039
uh was a man named paul sweesey

488
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:03,360
s-w-e-e-z-y

489
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:05,679
you can look him up lots of books very

490
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:07,360
funny cite him in the transcript

491
00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:11,280
okay uh ironically a member of the

492
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:13,360
rockefeller family here in the united

493
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:14,240
states

494
00:19:20,549 --> 00:19:17,520
uh the rich ones um

495
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:20,559
who also went to harvard by the way uh

496
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:24,000
but in a way parallel to mine

497
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:26,240
he ended up being a marxist long story

498
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:27,200
short

499
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:29,760
uh teaching at harvard where he had gone

500
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:30,480
to school

501
00:19:34,549 --> 00:19:33,840
he was a professor um and one of the

502
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:34,559
great

503
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:37,679
inspirations to call to paul sweezey

504
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:42,559
as a marxist at harvard was the american

505
00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:46,000
theorist and economist thorsten veblen

506
00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:48,400
whom i hope you know or if you don't you

507
00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:49,919
ought to learn one of the great

508
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:52,880
thinkers on the left in the united

509
00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:53,679
states

510
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:57,120
before world war one even let alone

511
00:20:01,510 --> 00:19:58,640
world war ii

512
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:01,520
uh and sweesy was in fact responsible

513
00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:02,720
for

514
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,320
keeping his legacy if you like alive

515
00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:08,640
veblen taught school in a variety of

516
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:10,880
american universities

517
00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:14,400
uh sweezy taught at harvard but with the

518
00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:17,679
end with the cold war harvard in a

519
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:20,240
typical gesture of academic

520
00:20:25,669 --> 00:20:23,760
courage fired sweezy

521
00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:25,679
okay he was the person who was

522
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:26,960
designated

523
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:30,080
as a young instructor to fill the shoes

524
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:31,760
of the most famous professor

525
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,559
at harvard in economics at that time a

526
00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:35,760
man named joseph

527
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:39,200
schumpeter all right he was retiring he

528
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:40,159
was an old man

529
00:20:45,909 --> 00:20:43,760
and sweezie was his prized student

530
00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:45,919
despite all of that despite all of

531
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:46,880
sweesie's

532
00:20:51,430 --> 00:20:50,080
connections not only as a thinker and as

533
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:51,440
a successful student

534
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:53,120
but as a member of the rockefeller

535
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,280
family and let me assure you

536
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:57,360
that harvard takes a great deal of

537
00:21:00,070 --> 00:20:59,679
interest in anybody who has anything to

538
00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:00,080
do

539
00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:04,000
these universities

540
00:21:07,669 --> 00:21:05,679
but he they fired him because he was

541
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:07,679
politically unpalatable

542
00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:10,559
and he went on to found a magazine uh

543
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:11,120
called

544
00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:13,440
uh monthly review i'm not sure you're

545
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:14,400
familiar with it

546
00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:16,480
uh it's been a socialist marxist

547
00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:17,440
magazine

548
00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:19,840
in the united states here it continues

549
00:21:25,990 --> 00:21:21,280
to publish now

550
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:26,000
uh it started in 1949 when paul sweesey

551
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:29,360
got together with albert einstein

552
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:31,760
who was a socialist who wanted to

553
00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:33,440
support marxism

554
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:35,360
i mentioned it only because most

555
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:36,720
americans have

556
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:40,320
cleansed mr einstein of his unfortunate

557
00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:41,760
political interests

558
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:43,360
anyway they started this magazine

559
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:45,440
together einstein and sweezie

560
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:48,480
in 1949 call month review

561
00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:50,400
uh in which by the way i have published

562
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:52,640
articles full transparency

563
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:55,919
here uh but that kind of thing is was

564
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:59,360
normal the professor who who by the way

565
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:02,000
who the only professor i ever had who

566
00:22:05,789 --> 00:22:02,640
assigned

567
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:05,799
marx was a man named paul buran

568
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:07,360
b-a-r-a-n

569
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:10,640
was a professor at that time in stanford

570
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:13,760
and had gotten the job uh

571
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:15,679
immediately at the end of the war

572
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:17,120
because of his

573
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:20,799
uh participation in the oss

574
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:23,120
the office of strategic services which

575
00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:25,360
was the forerunner in the united states

576
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:28,799
of the cia he had been a leftist

577
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:31,200
and had been working as sweesy and

578
00:22:36,470 --> 00:22:32,400
others did

579
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:36,480
in the anti-fascism movement which one

580
00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:38,720
included collaboration with the very

581
00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:40,640
same government that later

582
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:43,919
turned on them uh when the wind

583
00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:46,640
changed but yes it it devastated

584
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:48,000
american academics

585
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:50,640
and by the way let me be clear it still

586
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:51,919
does

587
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,200
the cold war ended in 1989. at least

588
00:22:59,590 --> 00:22:57,280
that's what the history books tell us

589
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:59,600
with the implosion of russia and eastern

590
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:00,640
europe

591
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:03,360
but you wouldn't know it if you go to

592
00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:05,840
academic economics in the united states

593
00:23:10,870 --> 00:23:06,880
today

594
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:10,880
it is as lopsidedly unwilling

595
00:23:17,909 --> 00:23:14,240
to admit the entire corpus

596
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:17,919
of marxist scholarship today as it was

597
00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:22,720
30 years ago it i find it stunning

598
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:25,360
i find it something that really merits

599
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:26,240
some

600
00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:29,360
uh analysis and one of the reasons if i

601
00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:29,840
can be

602
00:23:38,149 --> 00:23:33,200
personal that you find your way to me

603
00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:38,159
is because i am a product of that elite

604
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:41,120
that opens doors for me because i went

605
00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:42,720
to those universities

606
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:45,600
if i had gone to other universities all

607
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:47,120
other things equal

608
00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:49,440
you would never have heard of me and we

609
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:51,520
wouldn't be having this conversation

610
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:54,320
that's part of the power of the ranking

611
00:23:59,430 --> 00:23:56,640
structure of american academia

612
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:59,440
and it's been true all my life let's get

613
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:00,960
some definitions out of the way

614
00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:03,600
for people i'm a man of definitions

615
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:04,720
what's marxism

616
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:07,279
what's communism and what's socialism

617
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:07,919
very good

618
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:11,200
let's do that marxism you know that's

619
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:11,600
easy

620
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:14,000
because it has something to do with karl

621
00:24:18,149 --> 00:24:15,840
marx and it has to do with

622
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:18,159
with a remarkable reality about karl

623
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:19,520
marx

624
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:23,039
uh the man lives from 1818 to 1883.

625
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:26,000
he does most of his writings around age

626
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:26,559
30

627
00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:29,200
and afterwards so you can narrow down

628
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:31,440
the middle of the 19th century

629
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:35,120
as the core of marx's writings

630
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:38,000
uh so we have what is 150 years more or

631
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:39,840
less since then

632
00:24:45,909 --> 00:24:43,760
uh and that body of ideas that he writes

633
00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:45,919
quite prolific just a footnote in case

634
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:47,039
your your your

635
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:49,919
audience isn't familiar uh marx is born

636
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:51,120
in germany

637
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:53,679
um but he's exiled but that's the way

638
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:55,360
they punished the political

639
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,600
leftists in those days they didn't kill

640
00:25:01,269 --> 00:24:58,720
him they didn't

641
00:25:02,149 --> 00:25:01,279
arrest them they exiled them so he left

642
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,159
germany

643
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:04,559
um went to france they did the same went

644
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:06,159
to belgium they did the same

645
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:08,080
and he ended up where all refugees from

646
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:09,520
europe in those days did

647
00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:12,000
in london which allowed you to stay

648
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:13,919
there so he lived the rest of his life

649
00:25:17,269 --> 00:25:14,880
in london

650
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:17,279
uh spoke english taught in english wrote

651
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:18,480
in english

652
00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:20,159
but mostly in german because that was

653
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:22,240
his basic language

654
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:26,400
in 150 years since marx died

655
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:30,240
his writings have inspired

656
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:33,279
marxist thinkers in all

657
00:25:39,669 --> 00:25:36,480
fields natural science social science

658
00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:39,679
humanities you name it in every country

659
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:41,520
on the face of the earth

660
00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:45,360
it's one of the most stunning spreadings

661
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:48,799
in a historically short time 150 years

662
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:51,360
is not long in history and there's no

663
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:52,559
country on earth

664
00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:54,000
that doesn't have its marxist

665
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:55,600
institutions marxist

666
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:58,159
intellectuals you name it so it's

667
00:26:02,789 --> 00:25:59,200
everywhere

668
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:02,799
which suggests if you're not close to it

669
00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:04,799
that there's something going on in this

670
00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:06,080
set of ideas

671
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:09,360
that an awful lot of people find really

672
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:11,360
interesting okay professor i'm going to

673
00:26:14,549 --> 00:26:12,720
get you to be a bit terse

674
00:26:15,909 --> 00:26:14,559
what is marxism what is socialism what

675
00:26:17,350 --> 00:26:15,919
is communism i want to

676
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:17,360
make the most of your time i know you're

677
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:19,760
getting it all right fine

678
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:23,120
uh socialism is a different thing

679
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:26,000
socialism existed before marx as did

680
00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:27,279
communism

681
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:29,360
those were existing things that marx

682
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,320
encountered

683
00:26:33,669 --> 00:26:32,720
he had positive and negative reactions

684
00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:33,679
to them

685
00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:36,400
broadly speaking in terms of what these

686
00:26:41,029 --> 00:26:38,000
words have meant

687
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:41,039
a i have to tell you that there is no

688
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:42,559
single definition there is no

689
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:44,159
institution that issues

690
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,120
definitions that everybody subscribes to

691
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:49,279
when you hear that word used you have to

692
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:50,640
look at the context

693
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:53,039
you have to read a bit because what

694
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:54,960
people mean by these terms

695
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,640
has always been contested terrain

696
00:27:02,390 --> 00:27:00,799
that's true of most social science

697
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:02,400
issues but it's true

698
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:05,039
in spades of this one so here's what

699
00:27:07,990 --> 00:27:06,080
socialism

700
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:08,000
has come to me and i'm going to narrow

701
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:09,120
it down to

702
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:12,720
three basic alternatives to help you out

703
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:15,520
number one the kind of socialism

704
00:27:18,789 --> 00:27:16,480
associated

705
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:18,799
with scandinavia western europe and a

706
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:20,399
whole lot of other societies

707
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:23,279
works roughly like this you have an

708
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:24,480
economic system

709
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:27,760
in which private enterprises are the

710
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:28,880
dominant

711
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:33,279
form however these private enterprises

712
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:37,120
are organized in a very particular way

713
00:27:43,909 --> 00:27:41,279
which is called capitalism namely

714
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:43,919
that they organize themselves with a

715
00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:45,840
very small number of people

716
00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:48,960
in a very dominant powerful position in

717
00:27:52,870 --> 00:27:51,200
modern capitalism these are called the

718
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:52,880
major shareholders

719
00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:55,520
or the board of directors or if you know

720
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:57,200
how a corporation works

721
00:28:01,350 --> 00:28:00,320
the major shareholders elect the board

722
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:01,360
of directors

723
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:04,799
and tell them what to do this is a tiny

724
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:07,520
number of people in most enterprises the

725
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:09,600
vast majority of people in most

726
00:28:13,909 --> 00:28:10,640
enterprises

727
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:13,919
are called employees whereas the first

728
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:14,880
group are called

729
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:18,240
employers but the way capitalism is set

730
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:18,880
up

731
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:20,799
all the key decisions about every

732
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:24,399
enterprise are made by a small minority

733
00:28:31,029 --> 00:28:27,760
that is not accountable to the large

734
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:31,039
majority in that enterprise

735
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:34,320
all the key decisions are made including

736
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:34,960
those

737
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:38,080
that impact the vast majority

738
00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:41,279
but the vast majority is excluded

739
00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:44,240
from participating in the decisions they

740
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:45,120
simply have to

741
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:48,240
live with the results which include

742
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:50,480
firing them and not paying them any

743
00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:53,200
money and throwing their families into

744
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:56,000
whatever dilemma that involves that's

745
00:29:00,549 --> 00:28:58,000
how private capitalism works

746
00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:00,559
and then they interact these enterprises

747
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:02,159
with one another

748
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:04,320
by means of market exchanges that's

749
00:29:10,070 --> 00:29:06,880
typically what we mean by capitalism

750
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,080
and the socialism of western europe

751
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:13,120
as the prime example involves the

752
00:29:17,070 --> 00:29:14,320
reaction

753
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:17,080
of the mass of the people to the

754
00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:18,240
grotesquely

755
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:21,600
undemocratic arrangement of a capitalist

756
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:22,880
enterprise

757
00:29:28,630 --> 00:29:26,480
by wanting some relief

758
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:28,640
and the way they get the relief is to

759
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:31,200
utilize their political power

760
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:33,440
to get the government and remember we're

761
00:29:37,830 --> 00:29:35,200
talking about societies

762
00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:37,840
in which universal suffrage exists to

763
00:29:42,789 --> 00:29:39,039
get the government

764
00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:42,799
which they vote in to regulate control

765
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:46,000
and limit the private enterprises that's

766
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:46,960
called

767
00:29:53,909 --> 00:29:50,880
socialism

768
00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:53,919
sometimes it's called social democracy

769
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:55,360
sometimes it's called

770
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:58,240
democratic socialism bernie sanders and

771
00:30:01,909 --> 00:29:59,279
aoc

772
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,919
like to call it democratic socialism the

773
00:30:06,149 --> 00:30:03,840
europeans who they're copying

774
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:06,159
like to call it social democracy that's

775
00:30:10,389 --> 00:30:07,600
one kind

776
00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:10,399
now there's a second kind and on this

777
00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:12,000
second kind there's a

778
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:16,399
debate is it socialism is it communism

779
00:30:20,389 --> 00:30:18,320
here's the second kind and then i'll

780
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:20,399
tell you what the debate is about

781
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:23,360
the second kind has the government

782
00:30:27,029 --> 00:30:24,559
intervening

783
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:27,039
not really one moment before we go into

784
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:27,840
the second kind

785
00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:29,279
because you said there were i just want

786
00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:30,799
to make sure we we have our ground

787
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:31,840
consolidated

788
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,080
so we said that there were three key

789
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:36,480
characteristics of socialism yes

790
00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:39,600
uh one that there is this private sphere

791
00:30:45,350 --> 00:30:43,520
that is uh disproportionately

792
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:45,360
designed to favor those at the top the

793
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:48,240
major shareholders the employers

794
00:30:53,590 --> 00:30:51,840
and this is at odds with a regulatory

795
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:53,600
force from the government in the

796
00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:56,320
democratic society of universal suffrage

797
00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:57,600
right these are

798
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:58,880
two forces that are kind of fighting

799
00:31:02,389 --> 00:31:00,960
each other in socialism are these the

800
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:02,399
features that define

801
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:04,159
uh socialism just i just want to make

802
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:05,840
sure before we hey

803
00:31:10,230 --> 00:31:08,799
they define the first kind of socialism

804
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:10,240
okay so the first kind so

805
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:12,640
here's the second thing yes the second

806
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:13,600
kind

807
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:17,279
is the government steps in and takes a

808
00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:19,519
much more active role

809
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:22,720
it displaces the private

810
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:26,159
owners and the private directors

811
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:30,000
of the enterprise it gets rid of them

812
00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:33,360
think of the soviet revolution in 1917.

813
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:36,799
it gets rid of them and it replaces

814
00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:40,399
all of them with state officials

815
00:31:44,789 --> 00:31:43,200
the government is now usually by in

816
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:44,799
russia it was called the council of

817
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:45,679
ministers

818
00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:48,880
it sets up a government apparatus

819
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:51,279
in which government persons people who

820
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:51,919
have a

821
00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:54,640
official position in a governmental

822
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:56,080
apparatus

823
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:00,000
replace the major shareholders and

824
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:02,399
the board of directors and and so we

825
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:04,880
talk of in economics we talk of state

826
00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:06,320
enterprises

827
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:10,159
um but i want to underscore some people

828
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:12,640
still call this socialism other people

829
00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:14,000
call it communism

830
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:16,320
that's usually a question of not being

831
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:17,600
very clear

832
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:19,519
about what happened and what the people

833
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:20,960
themselves say

834
00:32:24,389 --> 00:32:22,960
and being lost in the propaganda of the

835
00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:24,399
cold war

836
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:27,200
let me give you a simple example in

837
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:29,279
russia and china

838
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:31,360
the the political party that makes the

839
00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:32,320
revolution

840
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:35,440
calls itself the communist party

841
00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:38,640
but never let me underscore that

842
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:41,760
never have either the chinese or the

843
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:42,720
russians

844
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:46,880
called what they set up as communism

845
00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:50,080
that's a western invention they called

846
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:51,519
their societies

847
00:32:57,830 --> 00:32:54,960
socialist for them it was a kind

848
00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:57,840
of socialism in which the government

849
00:33:02,389 --> 00:32:59,279
went beyond

850
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:02,399
regulating as in scandinavia and western

851
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:03,120
europe

852
00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:06,399
to actually operating large sections by

853
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:08,000
the way never 100

854
00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:11,120
but large sections of the economy

855
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:14,399
as a governmental uh exercise

856
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:17,760
ussr stands for the union of soviet

857
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:21,200
socialist republics it's a socialism

858
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:23,840
and the communist party of china refers

859
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:24,960
to china

860
00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:28,080
as a socialist economic system with

861
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:30,320
chinese characteristics

862
00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:33,360
but the notion of a communism was

863
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:36,399
always in those societies the place

864
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:39,200
toward which the political party was

865
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:40,080
hopefully

866
00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:43,360
taking the country not a status

867
00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:46,399
that had ever been achieved so the

868
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:48,159
soviet union disappears

869
00:33:54,789 --> 00:33:51,600
before it could arrive at communism

870
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:54,799
okay now so you have two

871
00:33:58,149 --> 00:33:57,519
two competing versions of socialism in

872
00:34:00,310 --> 00:33:58,159
one

873
00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:00,320
the government is regulated bernie

874
00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:01,760
sanders aoc

875
00:34:06,789 --> 00:34:04,159
folks like that in another one you have

876
00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:06,799
the government taking over russia china

877
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:07,519
vietnam

878
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:10,800
cuba and so on that's what they do

879
00:34:16,069 --> 00:34:14,639
now there's a third and the third one is

880
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:16,079
emerging now

881
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:19,760
because of the historical experiences

882
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:23,119
of the first two see we have

883
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:26,639
a century of the first kind of socialism

884
00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:28,960
and we have now a century of the second

885
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:30,079
kind

886
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:32,240
we have a lot of experience with

887
00:34:37,510 --> 00:34:34,159
socialist governments

888
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:37,520
regulating private capitalism

889
00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:39,760
i i for example can tell you if you're

890
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:40,560
interested

891
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:43,200
about portugal portugal has been

892
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:45,440
governed for the last several years

893
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:48,240
by a coalition it comprises the

894
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:50,240
portuguese socialist party

895
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:52,639
the portuguese communist party and the

896
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:54,720
portuguese green party

897
00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:57,280
i will not embarrass you by asking you

898
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:58,640
whether you were aware

899
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:00,800
that portugal has been governed by this

900
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:01,760
coalition

901
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:04,640
over recent years if you are typical

902
00:35:09,109 --> 00:35:05,520
americans

903
00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:09,119
you had no clue and that's the

904
00:35:13,589 --> 00:35:11,599
seabees that comes to mind in greece in

905
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:13,599
greece

906
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:16,000
there's definitely a movement right yeah

907
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:18,240
but syriza didn't last real long

908
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:21,520
and the portuguese experiment did and so

909
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:21,920
it

910
00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:29,760
here's my point the the russian

911
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:32,400
and the chinese and the western europe

912
00:35:37,109 --> 00:35:34,160
and the scandinavian

913
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:37,119
these kinds of socialism have now been

914
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:38,240
tried

915
00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:41,280
over the last century and while they

916
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:42,000
achieved

917
00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:45,280
much that is valuable they also

918
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:48,320
experienced major failings

919
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:51,599
major failures major setbacks and the

920
00:35:56,310 --> 00:35:53,839
job of the marxist movement

921
00:35:57,270 --> 00:35:56,320
that tries to understand and analyze all

922
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:57,280
of this

923
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:01,040
is to understand both the successes

924
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:04,480
and the failures so that the experiments

925
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,640
will have taught us something and the

926
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:08,160
next phase

927
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:11,119
will be more successful and better than

928
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:11,520
these

929
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:14,160
early experiments in going beyond

930
00:36:16,870 --> 00:36:15,359
capitalism

931
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:16,880
so what we're getting into the third

932
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:18,720
phase and as a preface is this the one

933
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:20,240
that you advocate for

934
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:23,200
absolutely so here's the third

935
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:24,560
definition

936
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:27,280
of either socialism communism i really

937
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:29,119
don't care about the language

938
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,160
all that much the third version of

939
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:34,079
socialism or if you like

940
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:37,200
communism has to do with

941
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:40,240
the response to the analytic

942
00:36:43,349 --> 00:36:42,320
of what the first two experiments in

943
00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:43,359
socialism

944
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:46,400
of the last century have taught us

945
00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:48,320
and here's the biggest single lesson

946
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:50,720
since our time is limited

947
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:53,760
that the changes made both in the

948
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:55,280
european western

949
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:58,800
socialism and in the russia-china

950
00:37:02,790 --> 00:37:01,599
governmental apparatus was that what

951
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:02,800
they changed

952
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:05,280
was what we in economics call the macro

953
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:06,160
level the big

954
00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:09,280
level of the economy they never

955
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:12,079
here comes the punchline they never

956
00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:13,040
radically

957
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:16,880
altered the internal organization

958
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:20,000
of the enterprise the factory the office

959
00:37:23,430 --> 00:37:20,960
the store

960
00:37:25,109 --> 00:37:23,440
where the work gets done where the goods

961
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:25,119
and services are produced

962
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:28,320
and distributed they left them

963
00:37:33,109 --> 00:37:31,280
as a small group of people at the top

964
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:33,119
making all the decisions

965
00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:36,880
and the mass of people being excluded

966
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:40,240
from the decisions but required to live

967
00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:43,119
with the consequences of those decisions

968
00:37:47,829 --> 00:37:46,079
from which they had been excluded

969
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:47,839
therefore

970
00:37:54,790 --> 00:37:51,119
the analytic runs as follows the

971
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:54,800
failures the flaws

972
00:38:03,190 --> 00:37:58,560
of the existing experiments in socialism

973
00:38:07,230 --> 00:38:03,200
can be corrected can be improved upon

974
00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:07,240
if we take the step of radically

975
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:10,240
democratizing the enterprise

976
00:38:17,589 --> 00:38:13,680
making socialism be not just

977
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:17,599
a macroeconomic change but fundamentally

978
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:21,359
a micro economic transformation

979
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:24,400
in which you leave behind

980
00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:27,920
the dichotomy employer

981
00:38:34,069 --> 00:38:31,119
employee which i would argue

982
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:34,079
is simply the modern version of the

983
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:36,079
earlier dichotomy's

984
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:39,760
lord surf master slave

985
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:42,000
get rid of them democratize the

986
00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:42,960
enterprise

987
00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:46,240
it becomes a community

988
00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:49,040
governed by one person let me finish one

989
00:38:53,190 --> 00:38:49,680
person

990
00:38:55,829 --> 00:38:53,200
one vote where all the decisions

991
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:55,839
what to produce how to produce where to

992
00:38:58,310 --> 00:38:56,560
produce

993
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:58,320
and what to do with the profits or the

994
00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:00,800
net revenue or the surplus depending on

995
00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:02,640
how you think about these things

996
00:39:08,069 --> 00:39:05,680
are made democratically the

997
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:08,079
democratization of the enterprise

998
00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:11,040
was not part of european western

999
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:12,240
socialism

1000
00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:15,839
and it was not part of soviet chinese

1001
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:19,599
socialism either footnote

1002
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:22,320
for the last seven years the cuban

1003
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:23,920
communist party

1004
00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:26,560
has been making a major effort to

1005
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:27,520
develop

1006
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,720
what are called worker co-ops which is

1007
00:39:34,630 --> 00:39:32,560
what i'm talking about

1008
00:39:35,829 --> 00:39:34,640
and make them an important part of the

1009
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:35,839
cuban economy

1010
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:39,599
so there is movement but that idea that

1011
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:41,200
socialism needs

1012
00:39:44,550 --> 00:39:43,680
the micro level democratization of the

1013
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:44,560
enterprise

1014
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:47,680
that's the third kind of socialism if

1015
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:48,640
you like

1016
00:39:53,349 --> 00:39:51,920
communism if you wish because the word

1017
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:53,359
communism then

1018
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:56,640
goes back to its root community common

1019
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:58,160
and that's what it is to make a

1020
00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:00,720
community a democratic community

1021
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:04,160
out of the workplace under the slogan

1022
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:06,079
you're never going to have political

1023
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:07,280
democracy

1024
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:10,240
unless you build it on a foundation of

1025
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:12,240
economic democracy

1026
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:15,119
and that's what this kind of socialism

1027
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:16,720
advocates

1028
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:19,119
so that idea of communism comes from

1029
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:20,240
commune

1030
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:23,520
and in was

1031
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:26,640
interestingly enough there was uh

1032
00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:30,400
a movement to communes pre-soviet union

1033
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:33,440
in russia that kind of helped spark that

1034
00:40:37,829 --> 00:40:35,680
so this idea of you start small and you

1035
00:40:39,510 --> 00:40:37,839
create these smaller experiments and

1036
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:39,520
then you scale them to the

1037
00:40:44,550 --> 00:40:41,040
you know to the larger picture to the

1038
00:40:47,109 --> 00:40:44,560
macro picture uh is definitely something

1039
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:47,119
that wouldn't be unprecedented in the

1040
00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:48,240
history of

1041
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:52,640
of communism let me add there are many

1042
00:40:55,910 --> 00:40:54,240
experiments and they weren't just in

1043
00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:55,920
russia they were all over the place

1044
00:40:59,270 --> 00:40:58,319
there were many experiments in what i

1045
00:41:02,710 --> 00:40:59,280
would call

1046
00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:02,720
the communism of a worker co-op type of

1047
00:41:04,870 --> 00:41:03,440
enterprise

1048
00:41:06,950 --> 00:41:04,880
there were many here in the united

1049
00:41:09,750 --> 00:41:06,960
states that i'm i'm speaking to you from

1050
00:41:10,870 --> 00:41:09,760
and in canada as well so it's all over

1051
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:10,880
the place

1052
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:13,920
there is nothing new in a sense what you

1053
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:14,560
have

1054
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:17,920
is a determination now to institute it

1055
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:19,040
on a social

1056
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:22,319
scale and one more thing because it

1057
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:22,960
seems to

1058
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:25,520
trouble americans when i talk this

1059
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:28,400
notion that you start in a small

1060
00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:30,800
group a couple you know a communal

1061
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:33,040
workshop that has 10 people in it or

1062
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,760
20 people and then you build from there

1063
00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:37,839
as somehow not workable

1064
00:41:41,829 --> 00:41:40,880
i got news for you that's how capitalism

1065
00:41:43,829 --> 00:41:41,839
developed

1066
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:43,839
the early capitalisms that came out of

1067
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:44,960
feudal europe

1068
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:47,680
they were tiny they were five people and

1069
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:48,000
10

1070
00:41:55,109 --> 00:41:51,920
people and they had to learn how to grow

1071
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:55,119
in the process of growing they invented

1072
00:41:58,470 --> 00:41:57,119
this joint stock company the whole

1073
00:42:01,109 --> 00:41:58,480
notion that you could have a

1074
00:42:01,750 --> 00:42:01,119
owner who wasn't on the spot working

1075
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:01,760
with you

1076
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:03,760
those were traumatic and difficult

1077
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:04,880
transitions

1078
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:07,119
they will be difficult for the

1079
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:09,440
collective democratic communism

1080
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:11,760
too but no one should think that because

1081
00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:13,040
you started small

1082
00:42:17,030 --> 00:42:15,280
that makes you in any way different from

1083
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:17,040
every other economic system

1084
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:19,359
and on that note right of joint stock

1085
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:20,560
companies marx

1086
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:22,400
when he writes on co-ops mentions that

1087
00:42:26,069 --> 00:42:24,160
right he says with the development of

1088
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,079
cooperatives

1089
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:28,240
on the workers part and joint stock

1090
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:30,560
companies on the part of the bourgeoisie

1091
00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:33,680
the last pretext for confusing profit

1092
00:42:37,030 --> 00:42:36,160
of enterprise with the wages of

1093
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:37,040
management

1094
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:40,560
was removed and profit came to appear

1095
00:42:47,510 --> 00:42:44,160
in practice as what is undeniably

1096
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:47,520
right sorry as what is undeniably

1097
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:50,800
uh was in theory mere surplus value

1098
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:53,680
value for which no equivalent was paid

1099
00:42:57,910 --> 00:42:55,599
he says it's in the third volume of

1100
00:42:59,030 --> 00:42:57,920
capital and so there's definitely this

1101
00:43:03,030 --> 00:42:59,040
this discussion

1102
00:43:05,349 --> 00:43:03,040
with uh cooperatives do you feel that

1103
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:05,359
cooperatives in your review of marx are

1104
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:06,240
cooperatives

1105
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:08,480
do they take to do his writings on

1106
00:43:13,349 --> 00:43:10,240
cooperatives take essential

1107
00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:13,359
rules or do they take a sideline role

1108
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:16,560
if this is sort of the true marxism

1109
00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:18,960
wouldn't we expect marx to just mainly

1110
00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:19,760
focus on

1111
00:43:24,470 --> 00:43:23,200
cooperatives yeah i would never argue

1112
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:24,480
that it's marx's main

1113
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:26,400
goal let me remind you a little bit

1114
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:27,920
about marx

1115
00:43:35,589 --> 00:43:32,160
um he he took the analysis of capitalism

1116
00:43:37,829 --> 00:43:35,599
as a whole as his project and he

1117
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:37,839
and that's crazy nobody can do that no

1118
00:43:42,309 --> 00:43:39,680
single person could ever do that

1119
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:42,319
he undertook it as the french would say

1120
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:43,920
fought demure

1121
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:46,240
because it was the best he could do and

1122
00:43:50,230 --> 00:43:48,000
so he was going to try it

1123
00:43:51,589 --> 00:43:50,240
he only finished volume one volumes two

1124
00:43:54,309 --> 00:43:51,599
and three were put together

1125
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:54,319
from his notebooks and his scribblings

1126
00:43:59,030 --> 00:43:55,440
volume two by

1127
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:59,040
uh by engels and volume three by kowtsky

1128
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:01,119
people who came after him or were

1129
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:02,480
colleagues of his

1130
00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:04,960
so they made the decision given what was

1131
00:44:07,829 --> 00:44:05,760
in the mind

1132
00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:07,839
their minds at the time of what was

1133
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:09,520
important and what was not and which

1134
00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:11,680
notebook would be

1135
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:14,400
developed and which wouldn't etc etc so

1136
00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:16,800
marx's comments on co-ops which weren't

1137
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:19,920
a major historical phenomena were

1138
00:44:23,109 --> 00:44:22,079
secondary to him you know he didn't

1139
00:44:25,510 --> 00:44:23,119
write about the state

1140
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:25,520
either there's no marxist theory of the

1141
00:44:28,309 --> 00:44:26,160
state

1142
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:28,319
there's very little on world trade and

1143
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:29,280
stuff like that

1144
00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:31,280
these were important topics we know that

1145
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:32,480
because he said so

1146
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:35,040
but he didn't get to the kind of

1147
00:44:38,150 --> 00:44:35,760
analytic

1148
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:38,160
of them that later marxists have been

1149
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:39,440
able to do

1150
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:42,800
so i think what you what you see is

1151
00:44:46,230 --> 00:44:45,839
people like me given what happened in

1152
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:46,240
the

1153
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:49,680
century after marx died building up on

1154
00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:51,440
parts of his analytic

1155
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:54,160
that other people uh found less

1156
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:56,000
important because of the times in which

1157
00:44:59,670 --> 00:44:56,960
they live

1158
00:45:01,589 --> 00:44:59,680
i'm not sure what in the world exactly

1159
00:45:04,790 --> 00:45:01,599
you would want to infer from that

1160
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:04,800
one more example when i first started

1161
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:06,640
getting interested in marks in economics

1162
00:45:10,069 --> 00:45:08,160
my

1163
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:10,079
reading led me to believe that there was

1164
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:11,760
a very important question

1165
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:13,760
about the relationship between marx's

1166
00:45:17,349 --> 00:45:14,880
theory of value

1167
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:17,359
on the one hand and explaining market

1168
00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:18,960
prices on the other

1169
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:21,520
since i was taking courses in economics

1170
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:22,720
i can tell you that

1171
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:25,119
at harvard yale and stanford all

1172
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:27,200
economics is about explaining

1173
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:29,440
prices it's sometimes called price

1174
00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:31,119
theory because

1175
00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:33,920
that's what it focuses on it took me a

1176
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:36,240
long time to figure out

1177
00:45:43,589 --> 00:45:39,599
that marx wasn't interested in prices

1178
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:43,599
that was for him a secondary tertiary

1179
00:45:46,710 --> 00:45:46,240
issue he was interested in conflict

1180
00:45:49,750 --> 00:45:46,720
between

1181
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:49,760
classes he was interested in the dynamic

1182
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:52,560
that makes uh capitalist societies

1183
00:45:57,990 --> 00:45:54,160
function and change

1184
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:58,000
and for him prices were a minor matter

1185
00:46:01,750 --> 00:46:00,319
and you have to understand that but

1186
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:01,760
marxist for a while

1187
00:46:05,270 --> 00:46:04,160
didn't and went through enormous

1188
00:46:07,510 --> 00:46:05,280
connections

1189
00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:07,520
trying to figure out how to transform

1190
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:09,920
the value system marx articulates

1191
00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:12,960
in volume one and three with the price

1192
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:15,440
system uh that western capitalist

1193
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:16,560
economics

1194
00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:19,680
deals with since i was a mathematician

1195
00:46:23,589 --> 00:46:22,319
it was quick for me to understand that

1196
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:23,599
the mathematical

1197
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:26,160
posing of this problem missed the whole

1198
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:26,880
point

1199
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,800
even though it engaged an entire

1200
00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:30,880
generation of economists

1201
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:34,160
because after world war ii what was lost

1202
00:46:38,069 --> 00:46:35,440
to economics

1203
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:38,079
in terms of the broader social issues

1204
00:46:42,790 --> 00:46:39,520
was replaced

1205
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:42,800
by a fetishization of very simple mind

1206
00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:43,520
and math

1207
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:46,160
and arithmetic which the economists

1208
00:46:50,230 --> 00:46:46,560
thought

1209
00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:50,240
was the greatest breakthrough imaginable

1210
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:53,440
but wasn't so in the past too you've

1211
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:55,040
talked about how

1212
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:56,800
private property and the idea of

1213
00:46:59,109 --> 00:46:58,319
government ownership were something that

1214
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:59,119
marx

1215
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:00,800
didn't really have as a central focus

1216
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:02,560
and it's sort of mistributed

1217
00:47:08,309 --> 00:47:05,760
uh to his his works right you say

1218
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:08,319
uh you would have to search long and

1219
00:47:12,069 --> 00:47:09,119
hard

1220
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:12,079
in the very voluminous works of karl

1221
00:47:15,829 --> 00:47:12,720
marx

1222
00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:15,839
to find one word about this he wasn't

1223
00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:16,960
interested

1224
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:19,119
in the government he didn't write an

1225
00:47:26,069 --> 00:47:21,839
article or a book about the government

1226
00:47:30,549 --> 00:47:26,079
he wasn't interested and so this

1227
00:47:33,510 --> 00:47:30,559
this misattribution what caused it

1228
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:33,520
a strategic decision made by socialists

1229
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:35,280
in the 19th century kind of thing that

1230
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:35,839
happens in

1231
00:47:43,589 --> 00:47:39,839
all schools of thought as they evolve

1232
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:43,599
as you read marx as people like marx and

1233
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:45,119
he wasn't the only one in the 19th

1234
00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:46,800
century not by a lone shot

1235
00:47:51,430 --> 00:47:49,760
and you you became aware in the middle

1236
00:47:53,589 --> 00:47:51,440
of the 19th century

1237
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:53,599
that the great promises of the french

1238
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,720
revolution

1239
00:48:00,549 --> 00:47:56,960
had been betrayed that the french

1240
00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:00,559
revolution had said to the europeans

1241
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:03,040
that if you bring in capitalism to

1242
00:48:07,270 --> 00:48:03,920
replace

1243
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:07,280
feudalism you will achieve

1244
00:48:16,150 --> 00:48:13,990
liberty equality and brotherhood and if

1245
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:16,160
you deal with the american revolution

1246
00:48:23,109 --> 00:48:19,200
add democracy that capitalism

1247
00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:23,119
brings those human values

1248
00:48:27,030 --> 00:48:25,920
into reality that was the promise of the

1249
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:27,040
french revolution

1250
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:28,880
because that's what it was its slogan

1251
00:48:34,069 --> 00:48:30,480
liberty equality fraternity

1252
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:34,079
okay by the 19th century critics

1253
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:37,440
were able to make the following insight

1254
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:40,800
capitalism sure has replaced feudalism

1255
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:43,280
but as a mechanism to deliver liberty

1256
00:48:48,309 --> 00:48:45,119
equality and fraternity

1257
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:48,319
it is a 100 bust

1258
00:48:52,150 --> 00:48:50,559
it failed and the only interesting

1259
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:52,160
question was

1260
00:48:58,710 --> 00:48:55,200
for them why why

1261
00:49:01,750 --> 00:48:58,720
did this promise get betrayed

1262
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:01,760
marx's answer was

1263
00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:05,520
it got betrayed because

1264
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:09,680
capitalism itself is the obstacle

1265
00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:12,720
to achieving liberty equality fraternity

1266
00:49:19,109 --> 00:49:16,079
of course it could not bring what it is

1267
00:49:21,589 --> 00:49:19,119
itself the enemy of

1268
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:21,599
and he devoted himself to making that

1269
00:49:25,589 --> 00:49:22,480
case

1270
00:49:26,470 --> 00:49:25,599
in his writings and he succeeded along

1271
00:49:29,030 --> 00:49:26,480
with others

1272
00:49:29,829 --> 00:49:29,040
so by the middle of the 19th century you

1273
00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:29,839
have

1274
00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:34,079
an enormous body

1275
00:49:38,790 --> 00:49:37,040
most beautifully encapsulated in in

1276
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:38,800
german-speaking europe

1277
00:49:42,549 --> 00:49:41,520
uh austria on the one hand and germany

1278
00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:42,559
on the other

1279
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:45,280
uh in terms of the spd in germany the

1280
00:49:49,109 --> 00:49:47,440
socialist party of

1281
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:49,119
in german the country is called

1282
00:49:52,950 --> 00:49:50,880
deutschland the spd

1283
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:52,960
socialist party of deutschland and in

1284
00:49:55,750 --> 00:49:55,200
austria the flourishing of marxist

1285
00:49:57,430 --> 00:49:55,760
theory

1286
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:57,440
uh on a scale no one had ever seen

1287
00:50:02,549 --> 00:49:59,440
before was the first

1288
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:02,559
flower of the postmarks generation of

1289
00:50:06,549 --> 00:50:03,440
marxists

1290
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:06,559
who by the way were personally connected

1291
00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:07,280
to

1292
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:11,359
uh sigmund freud uh rudolph carnap

1293
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:13,760
lutwick wittgenstein and all of modern

1294
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:14,480
thinking

1295
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:16,319
which is another reason why excluding

1296
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:18,240
marxism from the curriculum

1297
00:50:23,990 --> 00:50:22,160
is such a mind-bending craziness anyway

1298
00:50:25,349 --> 00:50:24,000
the question then became in the 19th

1299
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:25,359
century how are you going to get from

1300
00:50:30,069 --> 00:50:26,880
capitalism

1301
00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:30,079
to the socialism that can bring liberty

1302
00:50:33,109 --> 00:50:31,760
equality and fraternity in the way

1303
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:33,119
capitalism couldn't

1304
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:36,319
and the answer they arrived at was

1305
00:50:44,710 --> 00:50:41,200
grab the state see if the mass of people

1306
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:44,720
can get their hands on the state

1307
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:47,280
because that will be the strategic key

1308
00:50:52,309 --> 00:50:48,480
way to move

1309
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:52,319
if we get this state then we can use the

1310
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:54,720
power of the state

1311
00:51:00,870 --> 00:50:58,400
to make the transition beyond capitalism

1312
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:00,880
because there's no other way to get the

1313
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:03,200
liberty equality and fraternity

1314
00:51:07,109 --> 00:51:05,680
that we have been motivated by the

1315
00:51:10,390 --> 00:51:07,119
french revolution

1316
00:51:14,309 --> 00:51:10,400
to seek so the focus on the state

1317
00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:14,319
becomes a strategic decision has nothing

1318
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:14,960
to do

1319
00:51:22,309 --> 00:51:20,400
how we're going to get there and the big

1320
00:51:23,670 --> 00:51:22,319
debate then becomes by the end of the

1321
00:51:26,069 --> 00:51:23,680
19th century

1322
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:26,079
do you grab the state by means of a

1323
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:27,680
violent revolution

1324
00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:31,440
or by evolutionary parliamentary

1325
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:34,079
politics and that's what engages the

1326
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:36,240
state becomes really important

1327
00:51:39,750 --> 00:51:38,160
and what about for you is violence ever

1328
00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:39,760
justified

1329
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:42,559
to bring about socialism only if it's

1330
00:51:47,030 --> 00:51:44,240
the self-defense

1331
00:51:48,470 --> 00:51:47,040
if the bourgeoisie can't leave quietly

1332
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:48,480
then they'll have to leave some other

1333
00:51:52,549 --> 00:51:49,680
way

1334
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:52,559
well when you say self-defense violence

1335
00:51:55,190 --> 00:51:54,000
can be interpreted as words

1336
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:55,200
as we've seen on some of the

1337
00:51:58,390 --> 00:51:56,720
contemporary discourse like you're

1338
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:58,400
assaulting me with your words

1339
00:52:01,750 --> 00:51:59,920
there are various ways of defining what

1340
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,760
self-defense is so when you say

1341
00:52:06,069 --> 00:52:03,040
self-defense

1342
00:52:08,230 --> 00:52:06,079
what are you meaning by that

1343
00:52:09,910 --> 00:52:08,240
well in the world as i see it today the

1344
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:09,920
monopoly of physical force

1345
00:52:12,950 --> 00:52:12,000
is in the hands of governments that are

1346
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:12,960
in turn

1347
00:52:16,630 --> 00:52:16,079
agents of and tools of the capitalist

1348
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:16,640
system

1349
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:19,680
which they are devoted to reproduce

1350
00:52:23,349 --> 00:52:21,520
if the mass of people don't want

1351
00:52:26,549 --> 00:52:23,359
capitalism anymore

1352
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:26,559
then the question becomes what is the

1353
00:52:33,190 --> 00:52:30,000
capitalist part of the society that has

1354
00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:33,200
the control of the monopoly of means of

1355
00:52:37,750 --> 00:52:34,400
physical force

1356
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:37,760
what are they going to do if they exceed

1357
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:40,400
to the will of the people to move on and

1358
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:41,680
have a different system

1359
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:44,640
then we don't need violence but if they

1360
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:47,760
decide to use their monopoly of force

1361
00:52:51,990 --> 00:52:49,920
and the way i read history they don't

1362
00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:52,000
hesitate at all

1363
00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:54,880
then the question becomes for us will we

1364
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:56,559
defend ourselves

1365
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:00,480
or will we not speaking of force

1366
00:53:03,589 --> 00:53:02,640
what lenin lenin in the state and

1367
00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:03,599
revolutions

1368
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:06,240
he doesn't like judges he doesn't like

1369
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:07,680
police he doesn't like the military

1370
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:08,800
because those are tools of the

1371
00:53:12,710 --> 00:53:10,160
bourgeoisie

1372
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:12,720
do you what do you see what do you like

1373
00:53:17,349 --> 00:53:14,559
or not like about the defunding movement

1374
00:53:17,670 --> 00:53:17,359
defunding the police movement well i

1375
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:17,680
don't

1376
00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:19,359
i'll be glad to come back to that let me

1377
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:21,040
can i just finish the other point that i

1378
00:53:23,589 --> 00:53:22,079
was making because

1379
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:23,599
i was still answering this question

1380
00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:25,760
about the state that that yeah before

1381
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:29,200
go on go on my friend okay um

1382
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:32,000
so here's what happened socialists

1383
00:53:35,589 --> 00:53:32,880
figured it out

1384
00:53:37,910 --> 00:53:35,599
they figured out how to get to state in

1385
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:37,920
russia they did it by a revolution

1386
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:40,480
in western europe as in portugal as i

1387
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:42,319
gave you an example a minute ago

1388
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:44,240
they did it in parliamentary means and

1389
00:53:47,829 --> 00:53:45,440
you know they've done it

1390
00:53:48,790 --> 00:53:47,839
quite successfully in many countries

1391
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:48,800
socialists

1392
00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:52,400
have taken political or state power

1393
00:53:56,230 --> 00:53:55,200
now the question becomes once they've

1394
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:56,240
done that

1395
00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:58,400
given the theory and the strategy

1396
00:54:03,750 --> 00:54:00,640
developed in the 19th century

1397
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:03,760
how are you going to go about making the

1398
00:54:08,829 --> 00:54:05,440
transition

1399
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:08,839
which is why you got state power from

1400
00:54:13,109 --> 00:54:10,000
capitalism

1401
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:13,119
to socialism and at that point

1402
00:54:19,990 --> 00:54:16,400
very very important the capitalists

1403
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:20,000
understood they had been defeated

1404
00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:22,000
they tried every whichever way to block

1405
00:54:26,950 --> 00:54:23,280
socialist parties

1406
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:26,960
from coming to power violently in many

1407
00:54:30,549 --> 00:54:28,240
cases

1408
00:54:32,309 --> 00:54:30,559
but they failed they couldn't do it the

1409
00:54:35,750 --> 00:54:32,319
socialists outmaneuvered them

1410
00:54:37,030 --> 00:54:35,760
and became players in turkey in terms of

1411
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,040
the state

1412
00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:39,599
the response of the bourgeoisie of the

1413
00:54:44,549 --> 00:54:41,280
capitalists if you like

1414
00:54:47,910 --> 00:54:44,559
was then to cut a deal having

1415
00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:47,920
lost the effort to prevent socialists

1416
00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:50,559
from state power now they had to deal

1417
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:52,640
with the reality that the socialists

1418
00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:56,000
had it and again make a long story short

1419
00:55:01,190 --> 00:54:57,680
although we can go into it

1420
00:55:02,470 --> 00:55:01,200
the deal that was struck was we the

1421
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:02,480
capitalists

1422
00:55:10,390 --> 00:55:06,880
will undo you unless

1423
00:55:11,270 --> 00:55:10,400
you come to terms with us and coming to

1424
00:55:15,589 --> 00:55:11,280
terms with us

1425
00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:15,599
meant a redefinition of socialism

1426
00:55:22,630 --> 00:55:19,359
no longer would it be the

1427
00:55:24,630 --> 00:55:22,640
process of a radical alteration of

1428
00:55:28,470 --> 00:55:24,640
society

1429
00:55:31,589 --> 00:55:28,480
no no what it would be would be

1430
00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:31,599
to be blunt capitalism with a human

1431
00:55:38,549 --> 00:55:35,040
face we socialists will be in power

1432
00:55:39,589 --> 00:55:38,559
but we'll make it softer we'll force the

1433
00:55:42,549 --> 00:55:39,599
capitalists

1434
00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:42,559
to have a minimum wage we'll force the

1435
00:55:46,789 --> 00:55:43,760
capitalists

1436
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:46,799
to offset the horrible capitalist a

1437
00:55:53,270 --> 00:55:48,319
business cycles

1438
00:55:57,780 --> 00:55:54,630
modify you know we'll have an

1439
00:55:58,950 --> 00:55:57,790
unemployment pro socialism will become

1440
00:56:02,069 --> 00:55:58,960
[Music]

1441
00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:02,079
a less harsh capitalism than

1442
00:56:09,270 --> 00:56:05,520
it had been before just

1443
00:56:12,309 --> 00:56:09,280
don't mess with our dominance

1444
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:12,319
in the enterprise and that's why it's

1445
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:15,520
important to understand

1446
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:19,200
with marx and hence my the quotation

1447
00:56:22,950 --> 00:56:21,839
that for marx it was never an exciting

1448
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:22,960
question

1449
00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:26,480
whether the government played the role

1450
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:30,240
of capitalists or a private person did

1451
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:33,280
who the capitalist is is not the

1452
00:56:37,349 --> 00:56:35,920
issue it's the capital it's as if you

1453
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:37,359
had said to me

1454
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:40,559
uh slavery didn't exist in such and such

1455
00:56:44,470 --> 00:56:41,520
a society

1456
00:56:45,910 --> 00:56:44,480
because alongside the private slaves the

1457
00:56:49,030 --> 00:56:45,920
government had slaves

1458
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:49,040
who the hell cares nobody would question

1459
00:56:52,309 --> 00:56:50,640
slavery on the grounds that the

1460
00:56:54,789 --> 00:56:52,319
government played a big role

1461
00:56:56,549 --> 00:56:54,799
or feudalism and let me tell you by the

1462
00:57:00,069 --> 00:56:56,559
way that slavery and feudalism

1463
00:57:01,349 --> 00:57:00,079
had governmental apparatuses that had

1464
00:57:02,950 --> 00:57:01,359
slaves and had

1465
00:57:05,190 --> 00:57:02,960
serfs the fact that there are

1466
00:57:07,910 --> 00:57:05,200
governments that have employees

1467
00:57:10,309 --> 00:57:07,920
doesn't change that it's capitalism it

1468
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:10,319
just says their state capitalism

1469
00:57:14,789 --> 00:57:13,200
alongside the private which is in no way

1470
00:57:18,069 --> 00:57:14,799
unique to capitalism

1471
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:18,079
and it has squat to do with socialism or

1472
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:19,280
communism

1473
00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:22,880
other than as a moment in the history

1474
00:57:29,589 --> 00:57:26,880
when a strategic gain was undone

1475
00:57:30,630 --> 00:57:29,599
by a redefinition of what socialism

1476
00:57:34,390 --> 00:57:30,640
meant

1477
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:34,400
so from the sound of it uh these

1478
00:57:38,230 --> 00:57:37,280
socialists get into power they become

1479
00:57:39,990 --> 00:57:38,240
the government

1480
00:57:41,430 --> 00:57:40,000
they strike a deal with these

1481
00:57:43,750 --> 00:57:41,440
capitalists

1482
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:43,760
and you know the corruption starts there

1483
00:57:47,829 --> 00:57:45,839
my my question is

1484
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:47,839
who are these capitalists is it possible

1485
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:50,720
that the socialists get in the power

1486
00:57:54,230 --> 00:57:53,680
and they have no intention of sharing it

1487
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:54,240
um

1488
00:57:59,670 --> 00:57:57,440
that is to say that they quickly become

1489
00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:59,680
exploiters themselves and that it's the

1490
00:58:04,870 --> 00:58:01,680
state that sort of dooms

1491
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:04,880
marxism as as opposed to these more

1492
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:06,960
anarchistic strains of marxism

1493
00:58:11,030 --> 00:58:09,839
that focus on the bottom up like worker

1494
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:11,040
co-ops

1495
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:13,520
uh communal living in the woods

1496
00:58:16,789 --> 00:58:14,559
somewhere like in

1497
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:16,799
the case for russia or the peasant

1498
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:18,640
commune

1499
00:58:23,829 --> 00:58:22,000
is the state and this is against

1500
00:58:25,069 --> 00:58:23,839
conventional wisdom i suppose but is the

1501
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:25,079
state

1502
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:29,680
antithetical to marxism

1503
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:32,079
well that's been a debate inside marxism

1504
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:34,000
for a very very long time

1505
00:58:38,710 --> 00:58:35,920
in the middle of the 19th century marx

1506
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:38,720
himself had a political alliance as well

1507
00:58:42,549 --> 00:58:40,240
as a personal friendship

1508
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:42,559
with a russian named bakunin who was at

1509
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:44,000
arguably at that time

1510
00:58:48,630 --> 00:58:46,160
the leading theorist of anarchism in the

1511
00:58:50,309 --> 00:58:48,640
world or for any period of time

1512
00:58:52,470 --> 00:58:50,319
and they worked together they together

1513
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:52,480
formulated the international working

1514
00:58:55,470 --> 00:58:53,920
men's association

1515
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:55,480
which was the beginning of the

1516
00:59:00,870 --> 00:58:58,319
internationals that we've had ever since

1517
00:59:02,829 --> 00:59:00,880
so from the beginning marxism and

1518
00:59:05,670 --> 00:59:02,839
anarchism have had a very

1519
00:59:06,549 --> 00:59:05,680
complicated relationship sometimes close

1520
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:06,559
sometimes

1521
00:59:11,349 --> 00:59:09,280
hostile to one another and so lenin is

1522
00:59:13,270 --> 00:59:11,359
the person who coined the phrase

1523
00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:13,280
when asked his question what do you want

1524
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:14,880
the state to be

1525
00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:18,400
in in your new society he says our goal

1526
00:59:24,710 --> 00:59:21,440
is the withering away of the state and

1527
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:24,720
and and to dismiss that as some kind of

1528
00:59:29,990 --> 00:59:28,160
you know trumpian verbiage is not to

1529
00:59:33,190 --> 00:59:30,000
understand a long history of

1530
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:33,200
engagement between marxism and anarchism

1531
00:59:37,270 --> 00:59:34,319
precisely

1532
00:59:38,549 --> 00:59:37,280
on what is the role of the state both as

1533
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:38,559
a transitional

1534
00:59:42,309 --> 00:59:41,200
strategic issue and as a long-term

1535
00:59:43,990 --> 00:59:42,319
institution

1536
00:59:45,910 --> 00:59:44,000
you said trumpian it's interesting

1537
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,920
because bannon actually says he loves

1538
00:59:49,829 --> 00:59:47,280
london for that

1539
00:59:50,549 --> 00:59:49,839
line uh which is kind of crazy but

1540
00:59:52,950 --> 00:59:50,559
anyway

1541
00:59:54,950 --> 00:59:52,960
um so but i want to know what you think

1542
00:59:57,990 --> 00:59:54,960
do you believe that the state

1543
01:00:00,789 --> 00:59:58,000
is antithetical to marxism i also like

1544
01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:00,799
mr bannon because i think his concept of

1545
01:00:05,510 --> 01:00:02,880
charitable foundation is one that ought

1546
01:00:08,870 --> 01:00:05,520
to be more widely understood

1547
01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:08,880
um i'm sorry your last question was

1548
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:11,040
that's interesting okay uh my last

1549
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:12,160
question was

1550
01:00:17,510 --> 01:00:15,440
do you believe that state is

1551
01:00:18,870 --> 01:00:17,520
antithetical to marxism i get the

1552
01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:18,880
broader context

1553
01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:22,079
um i.e was bakunin or

1554
01:00:26,470 --> 01:00:23,920
maybe more preferable anarchists

1555
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:26,480
krapotkin

1556
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:29,440
tolstoy were they ranked on the issue as

1557
01:00:33,589 --> 01:00:31,760
opposed to the marxists

1558
01:00:35,430 --> 01:00:33,599
well i've always understood them to be a

1559
01:00:37,109 --> 01:00:35,440
necessary compliment to one another

1560
01:00:38,549 --> 01:00:37,119
which is why i think they got together

1561
01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:38,559
in the first place

1562
01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:41,440
in other words you're going the old

1563
01:00:44,710 --> 01:00:42,160
marxist

1564
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:44,720
argument was the state is the agent of

1565
01:00:49,750 --> 01:00:46,720
the ruling class that the state

1566
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:49,760
is an institution designed

1567
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:53,920
to reproduce the society as a whole

1568
01:01:00,789 --> 01:00:57,119
in the manner that the ruling class

1569
01:01:01,510 --> 01:01:00,799
wishes it to be reproduced if you got

1570
01:01:05,109 --> 01:01:01,520
rid

1571
01:01:08,230 --> 01:01:05,119
of the dichotomy between ruler and rule

1572
01:01:10,950 --> 01:01:08,240
that exists inside the enterprise

1573
01:01:11,750 --> 01:01:10,960
then there wouldn't be a need for the

1574
01:01:14,870 --> 01:01:11,760
state

1575
01:01:17,990 --> 01:01:14,880
and it would then wither away

1576
01:01:19,109 --> 01:01:18,000
and on that basis a deal could be made a

1577
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:19,119
strategic

1578
01:01:26,069 --> 01:01:22,640
alliance in principle and in practice

1579
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:26,079
between marxists and anarchists

1580
01:01:29,349 --> 01:01:28,160
in order for us to get rid of the state

1581
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:29,359
we need

1582
01:01:33,270 --> 01:01:32,240
the democratization of the workplace and

1583
01:01:36,230 --> 01:01:33,280
in order to

1584
01:01:38,230 --> 01:01:36,240
solidify the dominance socially of a

1585
01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:38,240
democratic workspace

1586
01:01:42,789 --> 01:01:40,960
you need to get rid of the state okay we

1587
01:01:45,589 --> 01:01:42,799
have a shared objective

1588
01:01:47,750 --> 01:01:45,599
if we work together we can together

1589
01:01:50,630 --> 01:01:47,760
better achieve the shared objective

1590
01:01:51,990 --> 01:01:50,640
than if either of us function on our own

1591
01:01:54,789 --> 01:01:52,000
so let's not only not be

1592
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:54,799
enemies let's be allies with the

1593
01:01:59,190 --> 01:01:55,920
conjoint

1594
01:02:01,829 --> 01:01:59,200
goal of getting rid of the state and

1595
01:02:02,870 --> 01:02:01,839
creating the institutions at the base of

1596
01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:02,880
society

1597
01:02:06,390 --> 01:02:05,440
that can make sure the state is a not

1598
01:02:09,670 --> 01:02:06,400
necessary

1599
01:02:11,190 --> 01:02:09,680
and b not allowed to return

1600
01:02:12,870 --> 01:02:11,200
while we're on the way to getting rid of

1601
01:02:13,510 --> 01:02:12,880
the state what about defunding the

1602
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:13,520
police

1603
01:02:16,789 --> 01:02:15,359
and also i'm curious to know what your

1604
01:02:17,190 --> 01:02:16,799
thoughts are on some contemporary issues

1605
01:02:18,789 --> 01:02:17,200
like

1606
01:02:20,150 --> 01:02:18,799
the black lives matter movement and do

1607
01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:20,160
you see them furthering the cause of

1608
01:02:25,190 --> 01:02:22,240
marxism

1609
01:02:26,470 --> 01:02:25,200
well i think like most movements um they

1610
01:02:29,910 --> 01:02:26,480
have within them

1611
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:29,920
the potential or the or the actuality

1612
01:02:33,270 --> 01:02:32,480
of uh merging with marxist movements

1613
01:02:35,829 --> 01:02:33,280
allying

1614
01:02:37,510 --> 01:02:35,839
with marxist movements cooperating with

1615
01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:37,520
marx's movements

1616
01:02:41,589 --> 01:02:39,680
and they have within them the potential

1617
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:41,599
to refuse any such thing

1618
01:02:45,349 --> 01:02:43,920
and to reject it and that those issues

1619
01:02:49,029 --> 01:02:45,359
and those questions

1620
01:02:52,150 --> 01:02:49,039
are in fact being fought out inside

1621
01:02:54,309 --> 01:02:52,160
if i ask myself why the rockefeller fund

1622
01:02:55,270 --> 01:02:54,319
gives as much money as it does to black

1623
01:02:58,069 --> 01:02:55,280
lives matter

1624
01:02:58,789 --> 01:02:58,079
i think i know what the answer is and i

1625
01:03:00,950 --> 01:02:58,799
understand

1626
01:03:02,630 --> 01:03:00,960
what why they're doing that and why they

1627
01:03:03,430 --> 01:03:02,640
have always done that and why the ford

1628
01:03:06,789 --> 01:03:03,440
foundation

1629
01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:06,799
does it also it's a question of shaping

1630
01:03:12,710 --> 01:03:10,160
as best you can which way this

1631
01:03:13,829 --> 01:03:12,720
internal debate in a movement like black

1632
01:03:16,390 --> 01:03:13,839
lives matter

1633
01:03:17,029 --> 01:03:16,400
works when it comes to defunding the

1634
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:17,039
police

1635
01:03:20,230 --> 01:03:19,920
for me these are strategic questions uh

1636
01:03:23,270 --> 01:03:20,240
not

1637
01:03:25,270 --> 01:03:23,280
principal questions the police function

1638
01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:25,280
in a certain way in our society

1639
01:03:30,150 --> 01:03:27,839
and they do that for particular reasons

1640
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:30,160
i do find it strange to

1641
01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:32,720
imagine and i hope most of the people

1642
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:34,160
pushing this are not

1643
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:36,079
doing what i'm about to say but to

1644
01:03:41,029 --> 01:03:38,160
imagine that you can go at the

1645
01:03:42,870 --> 01:03:41,039
to the last step of a long process

1646
01:03:45,990 --> 01:03:42,880
namely what the police do

1647
01:03:48,549 --> 01:03:46,000
fix it without changing the contacts

1648
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:48,559
that makes it what it is if you defund

1649
01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:49,359
the police

1650
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:52,240
and you have some other agency step in

1651
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:52,720
to do

1652
01:03:56,390 --> 01:03:55,280
god knows what it will end up doing what

1653
01:03:58,150 --> 01:03:56,400
the police do

1654
01:03:59,670 --> 01:03:58,160
because you haven't changed the social

1655
01:04:02,390 --> 01:03:59,680
system within which

1656
01:04:03,349 --> 01:04:02,400
the police are given their tasks paid

1657
01:04:05,349 --> 01:04:03,359
their money

1658
01:04:06,789 --> 01:04:05,359
rewarded and punished for the things

1659
01:04:09,349 --> 01:04:06,799
they do and don't do

1660
01:04:11,109 --> 01:04:09,359
that's what has to be changed otherwise

1661
01:04:13,910 --> 01:04:11,119
you're just changing the personnel

1662
01:04:14,710 --> 01:04:13,920
or changing the who of the of the

1663
01:04:18,549 --> 01:04:14,720
behavior

1664
01:04:20,150 --> 01:04:18,559
in the social system

1665
01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:20,160
then it sounds like we've once again

1666
01:04:22,710 --> 01:04:22,079
returned to the more anarchistic

1667
01:04:24,309 --> 01:04:22,720
tendencies

1668
01:04:26,309 --> 01:04:24,319
of starting from the bottom up as

1669
01:04:26,710 --> 01:04:26,319
opposed to regulatory change from the

1670
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:26,720
top

1671
01:04:32,069 --> 01:04:30,079
down um i unders i understand why

1672
01:04:33,029 --> 01:04:32,079
anarchists like to believe that this is

1673
01:04:35,109 --> 01:04:33,039
anarchism

1674
01:04:36,630 --> 01:04:35,119
but it isn't the anarchists have no

1675
01:04:38,470 --> 01:04:36,640
monopoly on the notion

1676
01:04:41,589 --> 01:04:38,480
that you do social development from the

1677
01:04:43,430 --> 01:04:41,599
bottom up the marxist movement in many

1678
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:43,440
many of its incarnations

1679
01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:46,480
has been rigidly clear that its

1680
01:04:52,390 --> 01:04:49,520
logic is to transform at the base

1681
01:04:52,789 --> 01:04:52,400
and force it onto those at the top this

1682
01:04:56,630 --> 01:04:52,799
is

1683
01:04:59,750 --> 01:04:56,640
absolutely

1684
01:05:02,069 --> 01:04:59,760
no doubt but it shares it it isn't

1685
01:05:03,829 --> 01:05:02,079
the sole carrier of a notion of

1686
01:05:06,549 --> 01:05:03,839
bottom-up development that

1687
01:05:07,270 --> 01:05:06,559
that's really given that anarchism has

1688
01:05:10,309 --> 01:05:07,280
been a much

1689
01:05:12,470 --> 01:05:10,319
smaller movement around the world than

1690
01:05:15,829 --> 01:05:12,480
marxism and socialism

1691
01:05:16,150 --> 01:05:15,839
always and everywhere i mean i think

1692
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:16,160
it's

1693
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:19,440
fair to suggest that these are shared

1694
01:05:24,230 --> 01:05:22,480
notions of development and putting the

1695
01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:24,240
adjective anarchist in front of him was

1696
01:05:27,750 --> 01:05:26,079
a little strange

1697
01:05:29,829 --> 01:05:27,760
let's imagine our guests would own the

1698
01:05:31,029 --> 01:05:29,839
label uh i think it would be very

1699
01:05:33,829 --> 01:05:31,039
against

1700
01:05:34,150 --> 01:05:33,839
that philosophy to only label even their

1701
01:05:37,190 --> 01:05:34,160
own

1702
01:05:39,910 --> 01:05:37,200
but i i agree

1703
01:05:40,230 --> 01:05:39,920
no label the bottom up they're making

1704
01:05:43,109 --> 01:05:40,240
men

1705
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:43,119
ask the question who in the various

1706
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:44,960
actors in the social drama

1707
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:46,960
who's committed to the a notion of

1708
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:48,799
bottom-up transformation

1709
01:05:51,829 --> 01:05:50,880
and who isn't and there's i think where

1710
01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:51,839
you get the

1711
01:05:57,349 --> 01:05:55,200
the debate inside socialism these days

1712
01:06:00,470 --> 01:05:57,359
are we in favor of the government doing

1713
01:06:02,829 --> 01:06:00,480
12 more things than it currently does

1714
01:06:04,950 --> 01:06:02,839
or are we in favor of a bottom-up

1715
01:06:06,230 --> 01:06:04,960
transformation and the worker co-op

1716
01:06:08,789 --> 01:06:06,240
movement

1717
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:08,799
is a bottom-up notion of of social

1718
01:06:12,150 --> 01:06:09,760
change

1719
01:06:13,029 --> 01:06:12,160
which calls itself socialist communist

1720
01:06:16,309 --> 01:06:13,039
marxist

1721
01:06:17,029 --> 01:06:16,319
and so forth okay bottom-up imagine you

1722
01:06:18,710 --> 01:06:17,039
can

1723
01:06:20,390 --> 01:06:18,720
advise the people of the black lives

1724
01:06:21,670 --> 01:06:20,400
matter movement as a whole they're all

1725
01:06:25,029 --> 01:06:21,680
watching this

1726
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:25,039
what would you change

1727
01:06:28,470 --> 01:06:26,880
redirect about the movement to make it

1728
01:06:33,270 --> 01:06:28,480
more efficacious in your

1729
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:33,280
estimation i don't know

1730
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:35,200
i wouldn't have taken to on myself the

1731
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:36,640
position of

1732
01:06:40,789 --> 01:06:38,960
articulating either such a question or

1733
01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:40,799
an answer so i don't know what

1734
01:06:47,990 --> 01:06:44,720
what i would say i would hope that

1735
01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:48,000
um the anti-capitalism

1736
01:06:52,710 --> 01:06:51,039
which i already see is present in the

1737
01:06:54,789 --> 01:06:52,720
black lives matter

1738
01:06:56,549 --> 01:06:54,799
statements that i've read interviews

1739
01:07:00,309 --> 01:06:56,559
i've watched and so on

1740
01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:00,319
i would hope that that's a growing

1741
01:07:08,470 --> 01:07:04,160
deepening uh commitment that that

1742
01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:08,480
an awareness that the problem of um

1743
01:07:13,430 --> 01:07:11,200
of an other in a capitalist society

1744
01:07:16,309 --> 01:07:13,440
which exists everywhere in the world

1745
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:16,319
has landed on the african american

1746
01:07:20,630 --> 01:07:17,520
community

1747
01:07:22,950 --> 01:07:20,640
uh from the beginning here

1748
01:07:23,910 --> 01:07:22,960
to understand the role it plays and to

1749
01:07:26,710 --> 01:07:23,920
be insistent

1750
01:07:29,109 --> 01:07:26,720
i guess that would be my my hope to be

1751
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:29,119
insistent that the transformation

1752
01:07:36,470 --> 01:07:33,440
beyond capitalism is a central part

1753
01:07:38,549 --> 01:07:36,480
of what can finally uh

1754
01:07:39,750 --> 01:07:38,559
liberate african americans from the

1755
01:07:41,589 --> 01:07:39,760
subordination

1756
01:07:43,829 --> 01:07:41,599
that they have suffered you know in this

1757
01:07:46,870 --> 01:07:43,839
society for so long

1758
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:46,880
there's been a debate whether or not

1759
01:07:51,430 --> 01:07:50,000
the root cause of

1760
01:07:53,270 --> 01:07:51,440
much of the suffering for the

1761
01:07:54,230 --> 01:07:53,280
african-american community in the united

1762
01:07:58,069 --> 01:07:54,240
states

1763
01:07:59,829 --> 01:07:58,079
is economic or racial and

1764
01:08:01,349 --> 01:07:59,839
i believe it was sanders who said that

1765
01:08:04,150 --> 01:08:01,359
the the root problem of

1766
01:08:05,829 --> 01:08:04,160
our country was economy it was something

1767
01:08:09,029 --> 01:08:05,839
that we needed to fix

1768
01:08:10,710 --> 01:08:09,039
and i believe it was uh one of the

1769
01:08:14,549 --> 01:08:10,720
leaders of the black lives movement

1770
01:08:19,749 --> 01:08:14,559
who directly refuted him and said no

1771
01:08:23,430 --> 01:08:21,829
to me this sort of strikes the

1772
01:08:26,149 --> 01:08:23,440
difference between

1773
01:08:26,789 --> 01:08:26,159
this more let's say it's called the

1774
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:26,799
older

1775
01:08:32,950 --> 01:08:30,000
left guard socialists and

1776
01:08:34,630 --> 01:08:32,960
the newer identity politics tendencies

1777
01:08:36,829 --> 01:08:34,640
of the left

1778
01:08:38,709 --> 01:08:36,839
do you find that this is a divide that

1779
01:08:41,189 --> 01:08:38,719
might uh

1780
01:08:42,630 --> 01:08:41,199
stunt or present a stumbling block to

1781
01:08:44,950 --> 01:08:42,640
socialism

1782
01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:44,960
what should be the socialists attitude

1783
01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:48,400
towards identity politics

1784
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:50,159
well we don't all mean the same thing by

1785
01:08:55,990 --> 01:08:52,640
these words but let me try anyway

1786
01:08:57,510 --> 01:08:56,000
uh to get at it i find the discussion of

1787
01:09:00,870 --> 01:08:57,520
what the ultimate cause

1788
01:09:02,950 --> 01:09:00,880
of things is boring

1789
01:09:05,269 --> 01:09:02,960
i don't know exactly what's at stake

1790
01:09:08,309 --> 01:09:05,279
here i suspect

1791
01:09:12,870 --> 01:09:08,319
it's organizational turf uh

1792
01:09:17,030 --> 01:09:14,309
well you know that's a very different

1793
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:17,040
thing priority is one thing

1794
01:09:21,030 --> 01:09:18,960
you know we all make priority i decide

1795
01:09:22,630 --> 01:09:21,040
what i'm going to do at 10 o'clock today

1796
01:09:23,749 --> 01:09:22,640
and i don't do something and i don't do

1797
01:09:25,189 --> 01:09:23,759
something else but i don't make the

1798
01:09:26,789 --> 01:09:25,199
world depend on it

1799
01:09:28,229 --> 01:09:26,799
i don't say that one is the more

1800
01:09:30,550 --> 01:09:28,239
fundamental i

1801
01:09:31,269 --> 01:09:30,560
i give a priority i'm more touched by

1802
01:09:34,229 --> 01:09:31,279
something

1803
01:09:35,590 --> 01:09:34,239
than the next person my autobiography is

1804
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:35,600
different from yours

1805
01:09:39,349 --> 01:09:37,600
and therefore i don't expect that the

1806
01:09:43,430 --> 01:09:39,359
things that you know

1807
01:09:45,510 --> 01:09:43,440
spark my passion are identical to yours

1808
01:09:47,030 --> 01:09:45,520
and i don't find that interesting your

1809
01:09:48,789 --> 01:09:47,040
mother was not mine

1810
01:09:51,110 --> 01:09:48,799
your community of growing up was not

1811
01:09:53,510 --> 01:09:51,120
mine you're a different person for me

1812
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:53,520
and we can have different priorities i

1813
01:09:57,669 --> 01:09:55,920
assume we have different priorities

1814
01:09:59,590 --> 01:09:57,679
i think every political movement that

1815
01:10:00,070 --> 01:09:59,600
ever got anywhere was a movement of

1816
01:10:02,310 --> 01:10:00,080
people

1817
01:10:03,270 --> 01:10:02,320
who had different priorities but

1818
01:10:07,110 --> 01:10:03,280
understood

1819
01:10:07,510 --> 01:10:07,120
the need for a movement that captured

1820
01:10:10,149 --> 01:10:07,520
that

1821
01:10:10,709 --> 01:10:10,159
brought together people who had

1822
01:10:12,790 --> 01:10:10,719
different

1823
01:10:14,470 --> 01:10:12,800
priorities and therefore having the

1824
01:10:17,590 --> 01:10:14,480
debate what's the most

1825
01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:17,600
important thing strikes me is odd

1826
01:10:20,870 --> 01:10:20,400
i'm not sure let's decide moment to

1827
01:10:25,030 --> 01:10:20,880
moment

1828
01:10:26,709 --> 01:10:25,040
day by day what is a good target for our

1829
01:10:29,830 --> 01:10:26,719
activities over this week

1830
01:10:30,709 --> 01:10:29,840
over this month and and some days that

1831
01:10:33,110 --> 01:10:30,719
decision

1832
01:10:34,790 --> 01:10:33,120
will be shaped uh this way and other

1833
01:10:37,590 --> 01:10:34,800
days it'll be shaped that way

1834
01:10:38,390 --> 01:10:37,600
we make our priorities tactical

1835
01:10:41,510 --> 01:10:38,400
strategic

1836
01:10:44,709 --> 01:10:41,520
and so on but we do it knowing

1837
01:10:47,669 --> 01:10:44,719
that each of us is a different person

1838
01:10:48,630 --> 01:10:47,679
with different motivations different

1839
01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:48,640
personal

1840
01:10:53,110 --> 01:10:51,440
priorities and i'm okay with that i

1841
01:10:54,630 --> 01:10:53,120
don't think there's any way out of it

1842
01:10:56,550 --> 01:10:54,640
anyway the trick

1843
01:10:59,750 --> 01:10:56,560
is not to debate what's the most

1844
01:11:02,070 --> 01:10:59,760
important that strikes me as nutty

1845
01:11:04,229 --> 01:11:02,080
you and i don't have the same standards

1846
01:11:06,709 --> 01:11:04,239
for that that's what we debate

1847
01:11:08,470 --> 01:11:06,719
and then we vote and then we see how it

1848
01:11:10,310 --> 01:11:08,480
works out

1849
01:11:12,390 --> 01:11:10,320
but the rest of it the rest of it

1850
01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:12,400
strikes me

1851
01:11:16,149 --> 01:11:15,040
and here you get my my suspicions get

1852
01:11:19,189 --> 01:11:16,159
aroused

1853
01:11:21,750 --> 01:11:19,199
what is the motivation i worry

1854
01:11:22,470 --> 01:11:21,760
what is the motivation of posing the

1855
01:11:25,270 --> 01:11:22,480
question

1856
01:11:26,149 --> 01:11:25,280
since it makes no sense to me i wonder

1857
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:26,159
why are we

1858
01:11:31,669 --> 01:11:29,199
asking whether it's more fundamental

1859
01:11:33,189 --> 01:11:31,679
to harm the economic change than the

1860
01:11:36,709 --> 01:11:33,199
racial change or the

1861
01:11:40,310 --> 01:11:36,719
you name it change do we re for me

1862
01:11:42,390 --> 01:11:40,320
that's a sign of movement immaturity

1863
01:11:43,669 --> 01:11:42,400
if we're going to sit around and who's

1864
01:11:46,790 --> 01:11:43,679
more oppressed

1865
01:11:50,070 --> 01:11:46,800
black people female people

1866
01:11:52,870 --> 01:11:50,080
this per what what are we doing

1867
01:11:53,669 --> 01:11:52,880
these are qualitative differences when

1868
01:11:56,550 --> 01:11:53,679
you reduce

1869
01:11:58,070 --> 01:11:56,560
qualitative difference to quantity

1870
01:11:59,750 --> 01:11:58,080
that's an old mathematical and

1871
01:12:01,510 --> 01:11:59,760
philosophic problem

1872
01:12:03,189 --> 01:12:01,520
there's something going on there that

1873
01:12:06,470 --> 01:12:03,199
you ought to interrogate

1874
01:12:08,229 --> 01:12:06,480
before you answer the question

1875
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:08,239
it's like what you do if a person

1876
01:12:12,950 --> 01:12:10,800
accosts you in in a dark space

1877
01:12:14,550 --> 01:12:12,960
and says i'm gonna give you free choice

1878
01:12:15,430 --> 01:12:14,560
i can either bash you over the head with

1879
01:12:18,630 --> 01:12:15,440
this

1880
01:12:21,110 --> 01:12:18,640
brick or i can stab you if you start

1881
01:12:23,590 --> 01:12:21,120
agonizing over which way to go

1882
01:12:24,390 --> 01:12:23,600
in this question you've made a strategic

1883
01:12:26,310 --> 01:12:24,400
error

1884
01:12:27,990 --> 01:12:26,320
because the response there is i don't

1885
01:12:29,910 --> 01:12:28,000
accept the question

1886
01:12:31,350 --> 01:12:29,920
not that i'm going to choose which is

1887
01:12:34,070 --> 01:12:31,360
the better answer

1888
01:12:35,189 --> 01:12:34,080
and for me that's how i react to what i

1889
01:12:37,830 --> 01:12:35,199
think you mean

1890
01:12:39,590 --> 01:12:37,840
by identity politics okay well i have a

1891
01:12:42,070 --> 01:12:39,600
quick aside about the dark space

1892
01:12:42,790 --> 01:12:42,080
i'm gonna accost you in it you mentioned

1893
01:12:44,149 --> 01:12:42,800
that

1894
01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:44,159
let's imagine we have socialistic

1895
01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:45,520
societies and capitalistic than the

1896
01:12:49,350 --> 01:12:46,320
socialistic

1897
01:12:51,270 --> 01:12:49,360
if by your definition they come about

1898
01:12:53,110 --> 01:12:51,280
they would be more free that this

1899
01:12:53,590 --> 01:12:53,120
capitalistic societies have promised

1900
01:12:55,669 --> 01:12:53,600
freedom

1901
01:12:57,350 --> 01:12:55,679
liberty use the word liberty but haven't

1902
01:12:59,189 --> 01:12:57,360
delivered however liberty freedoms

1903
01:13:00,630 --> 01:12:59,199
are qualitative distinctions yet you're

1904
01:13:02,470 --> 01:13:00,640
saying that socialistic

1905
01:13:04,709 --> 01:13:02,480
in your definition of worker co-ops

1906
01:13:07,350 --> 01:13:04,719
being engendered and pervasive

1907
01:13:09,590 --> 01:13:07,360
would allow for more liberty and that to

1908
01:13:11,990 --> 01:13:09,600
me is a quantitative

1909
01:13:13,590 --> 01:13:12,000
now analysis because you've said more

1910
01:13:14,950 --> 01:13:13,600
which is less more less than is you know

1911
01:13:18,149 --> 01:13:14,960
less or equal than sign

1912
01:13:18,950 --> 01:13:18,159
okay so how are you transmuting this

1913
01:13:21,270 --> 01:13:18,960
qualitative

1914
01:13:23,189 --> 01:13:21,280
notion of freedom to a quantitative and

1915
01:13:25,110 --> 01:13:23,199
why does that not suffer from the same

1916
01:13:28,149 --> 01:13:25,120
problems that you just outlined with

1917
01:13:30,709 --> 01:13:28,159
measures of oppression let's say

1918
01:13:32,149 --> 01:13:30,719
if i made a verbal slip and i made

1919
01:13:34,310 --> 01:13:32,159
quality into quantity

1920
01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:34,320
then you're absolutely right to catch me

1921
01:13:40,149 --> 01:13:37,360
on it and caution me about doing that

1922
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:40,159
i don't think i did it but i'm sure i

1923
01:13:43,590 --> 01:13:42,239
i'm the product of the school systems in

1924
01:13:46,430 --> 01:13:43,600
which i was produced

1925
01:13:48,149 --> 01:13:46,440
and making that kind of slip it's an

1926
01:13:50,229 --> 01:13:48,159
epistemological slip

1927
01:13:51,910 --> 01:13:50,239
it's part of the game that you as you

1928
01:13:54,870 --> 01:13:51,920
learn and as you change

1929
01:13:56,790 --> 01:13:54,880
i would insist that what the socialists

1930
01:13:59,910 --> 01:13:56,800
are about is a changed

1931
01:14:00,310 --> 01:13:59,920
quality of what the word liberty would

1932
01:14:03,110 --> 01:14:00,320
mean

1933
01:14:05,830 --> 01:14:03,120
what the reality of a society that

1934
01:14:08,070 --> 01:14:05,840
honored liberty equality and fraternity

1935
01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:08,080
would have would have to mean and that

1936
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:10,080
that's necessarily built in

1937
01:14:14,950 --> 01:14:11,920
because we don't mean the same things by

1938
01:14:17,590 --> 01:14:14,960
these words liberty equality fraternity

1939
01:14:19,350 --> 01:14:17,600
i mean people who are carrying guns into

1940
01:14:21,510 --> 01:14:19,360
midwestern courtrooms

1941
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:21,520
because they don't want to wear face

1942
01:14:24,149 --> 01:14:22,400
masks

1943
01:14:26,550 --> 01:14:24,159
use the word liberty to describe what

1944
01:14:28,310 --> 01:14:26,560
they're doing they want the liberty

1945
01:14:30,149 --> 01:14:28,320
to breathe on other people with the

1946
01:14:32,149 --> 01:14:30,159
disease it's like asking me

1947
01:14:33,590 --> 01:14:32,159
for me it reads like oh i want the

1948
01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:33,600
liberty of going through the

1949
01:14:37,189 --> 01:14:35,360
traffic intersection without paying

1950
01:14:39,669 --> 01:14:37,199
attention to the green and the red light

1951
01:14:40,310 --> 01:14:39,679
i mean i understand the use of the word

1952
01:14:43,270 --> 01:14:40,320
liberty

1953
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:43,280
but it has no no residence for me i mean

1954
01:14:46,550 --> 01:14:44,159
by liberty

1955
01:14:47,990 --> 01:14:46,560
something completely different from that

1956
01:14:49,030 --> 01:14:48,000
which they don't recognize and i

1957
01:14:50,950 --> 01:14:49,040
understand that

1958
01:14:52,870 --> 01:14:50,960
so i shouldn't use words like more or

1959
01:14:53,590 --> 01:14:52,880
less because we're really talking about

1960
01:14:57,270 --> 01:14:53,600
very

1961
01:14:59,669 --> 01:14:57,280
differently qualitative notions of what

1962
01:15:00,950 --> 01:14:59,679
would exist if we may defend the idea of

1963
01:15:02,630 --> 01:15:00,960
setting priorities

1964
01:15:04,229 --> 01:15:02,640
and you know especially in political

1965
01:15:05,030 --> 01:15:04,239
movements as to what is important and

1966
01:15:09,830 --> 01:15:05,040
what is not

1967
01:15:12,950 --> 01:15:09,840
important and which ones take precedence

1968
01:15:15,350 --> 01:15:12,960
you know if there's a current debate

1969
01:15:16,070 --> 01:15:15,360
but not only between identity politics

1970
01:15:18,310 --> 01:15:16,080
and

1971
01:15:19,990 --> 01:15:18,320
socialism that you find on the ground

1972
01:15:21,669 --> 01:15:20,000
that is a debate

1973
01:15:23,990 --> 01:15:21,679
that transcends what's on the ground but

1974
01:15:26,149 --> 01:15:24,000
even bubbles up to policy

1975
01:15:28,310 --> 01:15:26,159
uh decisions as to whether or not

1976
01:15:31,350 --> 01:15:28,320
funding should be directed more towards

1977
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:31,360
people of particular groups or

1978
01:15:37,669 --> 01:15:35,679
to the poor in aggregate or in general

1979
01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:37,679
when it comes to this idea of liberty

1980
01:15:43,110 --> 01:15:39,600
that you mentioned with the masks

1981
01:15:44,550 --> 01:15:43,120
people storming into armed gunmen

1982
01:15:47,189 --> 01:15:44,560
storming into

1983
01:15:49,270 --> 01:15:47,199
these government buildings you could

1984
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:49,280
argue even here there is a debate

1985
01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:52,560
between which liberties triumph over

1986
01:15:56,390 --> 01:15:53,760
which other liberties

1987
01:15:57,510 --> 01:15:56,400
does my liberty to breathe on you with a

1988
01:16:00,550 --> 01:15:57,520
disease

1989
01:16:03,110 --> 01:16:00,560
uh triumph your liberty to

1990
01:16:04,390 --> 01:16:03,120
trump your liberty to not have me do

1991
01:16:05,830 --> 01:16:04,400
that and

1992
01:16:07,910 --> 01:16:05,840
to me i think the answer is kind of

1993
01:16:09,990 --> 01:16:07,920
clear on that one person but

1994
01:16:11,830 --> 01:16:10,000
you know some people do not think so so

1995
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:11,840
i think it is worthy having these

1996
01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:13,280
discussions even in a

1997
01:16:20,149 --> 01:16:16,800
liberal society as to where

1998
01:16:20,550 --> 01:16:20,159
where do our rights take precedent where

1999
01:16:23,910 --> 01:16:20,560
do

2000
01:16:27,910 --> 01:16:23,920
our issues take their importance

2001
01:16:31,030 --> 01:16:27,920
anyway so when we look at

2002
01:16:33,590 --> 01:16:31,040
the world now and we see this

2003
01:16:35,110 --> 01:16:33,600
conflict between identity politics and

2004
01:16:38,630 --> 01:16:35,120
socialism

2005
01:16:40,870 --> 01:16:38,640
could i could i interrupt sure

2006
01:16:42,390 --> 01:16:40,880
i don't like that way of posing it and i

2007
01:16:45,910 --> 01:16:42,400
want to just object

2008
01:16:49,350 --> 01:16:45,920
to it i for me

2009
01:16:52,070 --> 01:16:49,360
if i'm advocating for what i guess

2010
01:16:53,430 --> 01:16:52,080
is meant here by socialism i'm

2011
01:16:57,110 --> 01:16:53,440
advocating

2012
01:17:00,630 --> 01:16:57,120
on behalf of people who are employees

2013
01:17:03,669 --> 01:17:00,640
and who have an identity as

2014
01:17:07,189 --> 01:17:03,679
such so i am an employee

2015
01:17:10,390 --> 01:17:07,199
i may also be a male i may also be white

2016
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:10,400
i may also be educated i may also be

2017
01:17:14,870 --> 01:17:11,280
unskilled

2018
01:17:18,709 --> 01:17:14,880
i may be all kind i have lots of

2019
01:17:19,350 --> 01:17:18,719
identification lots of communities if

2020
01:17:23,110 --> 01:17:19,360
you like

2021
01:17:23,430 --> 01:17:23,120
in which i participate and the composite

2022
01:17:30,310 --> 01:17:23,440
of

2023
01:17:33,590 --> 01:17:30,320
i wouldn't understand that i'm more

2024
01:17:36,950 --> 01:17:33,600
a man than i am white

2025
01:17:39,590 --> 01:17:36,960
or i'm more an employee than i am

2026
01:17:40,470 --> 01:17:39,600
white or any i don't understand

2027
01:17:43,590 --> 01:17:40,480
literally

2028
01:17:44,709 --> 01:17:43,600
what i'm supposed to make of these

2029
01:17:48,229 --> 01:17:44,719
things

2030
01:17:49,110 --> 01:17:48,239
again for me a successful political

2031
01:17:51,590 --> 01:17:49,120
movement

2032
01:17:53,510 --> 01:17:51,600
is an alliance if you like or a

2033
01:17:56,550 --> 01:17:53,520
coalition or whatever word

2034
01:18:00,790 --> 01:17:56,560
you want of people who have

2035
01:18:03,270 --> 01:18:00,800
different sets of identifications

2036
01:18:04,470 --> 01:18:03,280
that get together because they can

2037
01:18:08,149 --> 01:18:04,480
define

2038
01:18:09,110 --> 01:18:08,159
a common objective and they can work

2039
01:18:11,830 --> 01:18:09,120
together

2040
01:18:12,790 --> 01:18:11,840
to try to come up with strategies and

2041
01:18:15,270 --> 01:18:12,800
tactics

2042
01:18:16,229 --> 01:18:15,280
to achieve whatever the common

2043
01:18:19,510 --> 01:18:16,239
objectives

2044
01:18:22,709 --> 01:18:19,520
have been determined to be that's what i

2045
01:18:26,390 --> 01:18:22,719
think of and a socialist

2046
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:26,400
contribution is to bring

2047
01:18:33,910 --> 01:18:30,000
for me the organization of the economy

2048
01:18:37,830 --> 01:18:33,920
at both the micro and macro levels

2049
01:18:41,270 --> 01:18:37,840
into play as among the varying

2050
01:18:43,870 --> 01:18:41,280
identities each of us brings

2051
01:18:45,030 --> 01:18:43,880
into the possibility of a social

2052
01:18:48,630 --> 01:18:45,040
transformational

2053
01:18:50,870 --> 01:18:48,640
movement i'm curious to know where you

2054
01:18:52,550 --> 01:18:50,880
disagree with marx what are your biggest

2055
01:18:58,470 --> 01:18:52,560
gripes

2056
01:18:59,990 --> 01:18:58,480
well you know it has to do with the

2057
01:19:03,430 --> 01:19:00,000
tradition of marxism

2058
01:19:07,350 --> 01:19:03,440
afterwards um i'm a little bit

2059
01:19:09,510 --> 01:19:07,360
pissed off that he did not write

2060
01:19:11,030 --> 01:19:09,520
as he had promised he would or that he

2061
01:19:13,910 --> 01:19:11,040
hoped he would

2062
01:19:14,310 --> 01:19:13,920
uh the works about the state the works

2063
01:19:20,229 --> 01:19:14,320
about

2064
01:19:23,510 --> 01:19:20,239
we now call economic development

2065
01:19:26,149 --> 01:19:23,520
um i think there were problems there

2066
01:19:27,189 --> 01:19:26,159
i think that the early work he did with

2067
01:19:30,310 --> 01:19:27,199
engels

2068
01:19:33,030 --> 01:19:30,320
around the analysis of of

2069
01:19:34,070 --> 01:19:33,040
household male female relationships

2070
01:19:37,270 --> 01:19:34,080
particularly

2071
01:19:38,709 --> 01:19:37,280
in the household uh was a wonderful

2072
01:19:42,229 --> 01:19:38,719
beginning

2073
01:19:46,070 --> 01:19:42,239
and i i'm i'm distraught that more work

2074
01:19:49,270 --> 01:19:46,080
didn't follow about that whole

2075
01:19:51,750 --> 01:19:49,280
quest the origins of the family um

2076
01:19:53,350 --> 01:19:51,760
and how that linked up to the rest of

2077
01:19:57,510 --> 01:19:53,360
capitalism

2078
01:19:59,350 --> 01:19:57,520
uh i think marx could have

2079
01:20:01,189 --> 01:19:59,360
worked more than he did he did great

2080
01:20:04,709 --> 01:20:01,199
contributions but he could have done

2081
01:20:07,990 --> 01:20:04,719
more on why

2082
01:20:10,550 --> 01:20:08,000
the paris commune of 1870 marx is

2083
01:20:13,189 --> 01:20:10,560
still alive at that time and he writes

2084
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:13,199
very famous pamphlets about

2085
01:20:17,110 --> 01:20:16,000
the paris commune and at that time it

2086
01:20:20,390 --> 01:20:17,120
was the first

2087
01:20:24,149 --> 01:20:20,400
effort to go beyond capitalism

2088
01:20:27,590 --> 01:20:24,159
in a major european country france paris

2089
01:20:28,470 --> 01:20:27,600
um and his own people were involved in

2090
01:20:30,790 --> 01:20:28,480
it

2091
01:20:32,470 --> 01:20:30,800
he wrote a very good essay about what

2092
01:20:33,189 --> 01:20:32,480
went wrong but he could have done much

2093
01:20:36,470 --> 01:20:33,199
more

2094
01:20:38,310 --> 01:20:36,480
since lenin used marx's writings on the

2095
01:20:40,390 --> 01:20:38,320
paris commune

2096
01:20:41,430 --> 01:20:40,400
to shape his strategy for the russian

2097
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:41,440
revolution

2098
01:20:46,229 --> 01:20:44,880
had marx done more work analyzing

2099
01:20:48,149 --> 01:20:46,239
particularly

2100
01:20:51,350 --> 01:20:48,159
the ambivalence of the rest of the

2101
01:20:55,350 --> 01:20:51,360
french about the paris commune

2102
01:20:57,590 --> 01:20:55,360
it would have cautioned lenin in ways

2103
01:20:59,189 --> 01:20:57,600
uh that i wish and here's perhaps the

2104
01:21:01,990 --> 01:20:59,199
biggest one

2105
01:21:03,430 --> 01:21:02,000
marx also made comments about worker

2106
01:21:07,350 --> 01:21:03,440
co-ops

2107
01:21:08,870 --> 01:21:07,360
uh as lenin did um they recognized the

2108
01:21:11,830 --> 01:21:08,880
potential

2109
01:21:13,189 --> 01:21:11,840
but they did not do what it is i'm

2110
01:21:16,550 --> 01:21:13,199
suggesting now

2111
01:21:21,750 --> 01:21:16,560
has to be done they never devoted

2112
01:21:24,870 --> 01:21:21,760
an analytic focus on asking the question

2113
01:21:28,310 --> 01:21:24,880
how should socialist society

2114
01:21:29,910 --> 01:21:28,320
transform the workplace let's remember

2115
01:21:32,390 --> 01:21:29,920
that's where most people spend most of

2116
01:21:34,629 --> 01:21:32,400
their adult lives

2117
01:21:35,910 --> 01:21:34,639
nine to five five days of the week you

2118
01:21:38,709 --> 01:21:35,920
go to work

2119
01:21:40,149 --> 01:21:38,719
it defines those five days you prepare

2120
01:21:42,870 --> 01:21:40,159
for work you do your work

2121
01:21:44,390 --> 01:21:42,880
you recoup from work you go to a bar to

2122
01:21:46,870 --> 01:21:44,400
have a happy hour to cope

2123
01:21:48,870 --> 01:21:46,880
with what the work meant to you it

2124
01:21:50,950 --> 01:21:48,880
shapes your personal life it shapes your

2125
01:21:51,990 --> 01:21:50,960
sexual life it shapes everything about

2126
01:21:55,270 --> 01:21:52,000
you

2127
01:21:57,110 --> 01:21:55,280
one would think that marxists focus on

2128
01:22:00,189 --> 01:21:57,120
the working class

2129
01:22:01,350 --> 01:22:00,199
including how the workplace shapes the

2130
01:22:04,470 --> 01:22:01,360
ideological

2131
01:22:05,590 --> 01:22:04,480
openness of workers to a movement for

2132
01:22:07,430 --> 01:22:05,600
socialism

2133
01:22:10,629 --> 01:22:07,440
that there would have been on the part

2134
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:10,639
of marx and marxist later the kind of

2135
01:22:14,629 --> 01:22:11,440
analytic

2136
01:22:15,910 --> 01:22:14,639
focus on the household on gender

2137
01:22:19,430 --> 01:22:15,920
relationships

2138
01:22:20,390 --> 01:22:19,440
on the identification of sexuality and

2139
01:22:24,149 --> 01:22:20,400
so on

2140
01:22:27,990 --> 01:22:24,159
so i think those are areas that marx

2141
01:22:30,229 --> 01:22:28,000
disappoints me because i learned so much

2142
01:22:32,790 --> 01:22:30,239
from what he did focus on

2143
01:22:34,870 --> 01:22:32,800
i wish he had given comparable

2144
01:22:36,870 --> 01:22:34,880
analytical attention to those kinds of

2145
01:22:38,470 --> 01:22:36,880
topics

2146
01:22:39,910 --> 01:22:38,480
you know as we were talking before we

2147
01:22:41,270 --> 01:22:39,920
said that a whole

2148
01:22:42,790 --> 01:22:41,280
a large part of this channel is about

2149
01:22:43,830 --> 01:22:42,800
when does the right go too far when does

2150
01:22:45,350 --> 01:22:43,840
the left go too far

2151
01:22:47,590 --> 01:22:45,360
and you can pull a gnome chomps and say

2152
01:22:49,350 --> 01:22:47,600
the only the right goes too far

2153
01:22:50,950 --> 01:22:49,360
even though he admitted that the left at

2154
01:22:52,870 --> 01:22:50,960
least the democratic left has abandoned

2155
01:22:54,470 --> 01:22:52,880
the working class

2156
01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:54,480
when do you see the right is going too

2157
01:22:58,070 --> 01:22:56,320
far ideologically speaking and when do

2158
01:23:00,070 --> 01:22:58,080
you see the left as going too far

2159
01:23:01,510 --> 01:23:00,080
like can equality be taken too far can

2160
01:23:04,629 --> 01:23:01,520
diversity be taken too far

2161
01:23:07,110 --> 01:23:04,639
you interpreted it as you wish

2162
01:23:08,229 --> 01:23:07,120
well i'm not clear i understand the

2163
01:23:11,750 --> 01:23:08,239
question but

2164
01:23:13,910 --> 01:23:11,760
being a student of uh marx requires one

2165
01:23:16,950 --> 01:23:13,920
to be

2166
01:23:19,510 --> 01:23:16,960
in my judgment anyway also a student of

2167
01:23:23,350 --> 01:23:19,520
marx's philosophic teacher

2168
01:23:25,350 --> 01:23:23,360
named hegel

2169
01:23:26,870 --> 01:23:25,360
and one of the things hegel argues in

2170
01:23:31,270 --> 01:23:26,880
his work

2171
01:23:34,149 --> 01:23:31,280
is that everything is contradictory

2172
01:23:35,189 --> 01:23:34,159
and that if you don't see the

2173
01:23:38,629 --> 01:23:35,199
contradictions

2174
01:23:42,149 --> 01:23:38,639
in something you're not getting it

2175
01:23:43,830 --> 01:23:42,159
that there's stuff you are occluding

2176
01:23:46,310 --> 01:23:43,840
and then it becomes a psychological

2177
01:23:49,350 --> 01:23:46,320
question why you would do that

2178
01:23:53,910 --> 01:23:49,360
so i don't expect liberty freedom

2179
01:23:55,910 --> 01:23:53,920
quality to be uncontradictory concepts

2180
01:23:57,590 --> 01:23:55,920
so when earlier it was said i don't

2181
01:24:00,229 --> 01:23:57,600
remember which of us said it

2182
01:24:02,149 --> 01:24:00,239
that the liberty of one person is is the

2183
01:24:04,470 --> 01:24:02,159
absence of liberty to another

2184
01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:04,480
that's exactly what hegel would argue

2185
01:24:08,070 --> 01:24:05,360
that's not a

2186
01:24:09,030 --> 01:24:08,080
flaw in someone's understanding of

2187
01:24:14,229 --> 01:24:09,040
liberty

2188
01:24:18,070 --> 01:24:14,239
contradictory

2189
01:24:20,470 --> 01:24:18,080
reality because all reality is

2190
01:24:22,870 --> 01:24:20,480
and now pardon my language over

2191
01:24:24,870 --> 01:24:22,880
determined anything we can think about

2192
01:24:26,149 --> 01:24:24,880
anything we can touch anything we can

2193
01:24:28,390 --> 01:24:26,159
see is

2194
01:24:30,870 --> 01:24:28,400
over determined by everything else going

2195
01:24:34,470 --> 01:24:30,880
on in this society

2196
01:24:37,350 --> 01:24:34,480
you or i are shaped by countless

2197
01:24:38,229 --> 01:24:37,360
literally an infinity of economic

2198
01:24:41,990 --> 01:24:38,239
political

2199
01:24:42,310 --> 01:24:42,000
cultural natural phenomena that impinge

2200
01:24:45,669 --> 01:24:42,320
on

2201
01:24:47,590 --> 01:24:45,679
us the air the water the dream

2202
01:24:49,350 --> 01:24:47,600
the the comment of your boyfriend or

2203
01:24:52,709 --> 01:24:49,360
girlfriend or whatever

2204
01:24:55,510 --> 01:24:52,719
all of those things shape us and

2205
01:24:56,470 --> 01:24:55,520
they shape us in different ways they

2206
01:24:59,430 --> 01:24:56,480
push and pull

2207
01:25:01,070 --> 01:24:59,440
us in all together we're full of the

2208
01:25:04,390 --> 01:25:01,080
resulting

2209
01:25:05,189 --> 01:25:04,400
contradictions that emerge as the other

2210
01:25:07,590 --> 01:25:05,199
side

2211
01:25:08,470 --> 01:25:07,600
of our over determination and that

2212
01:25:11,590 --> 01:25:08,480
applies to

2213
01:25:14,149 --> 01:25:11,600
liberty or african-american-ness

2214
01:25:15,270 --> 01:25:14,159
if that's the right word or any other

2215
01:25:17,510 --> 01:25:15,280
construct

2216
01:25:18,470 --> 01:25:17,520
that we come up with mentally or

2217
01:25:20,790 --> 01:25:18,480
encounter

2218
01:25:21,510 --> 01:25:20,800
in our physical world so i'm not i don't

2219
01:25:24,310 --> 01:25:21,520
find it a

2220
01:25:25,270 --> 01:25:24,320
flaw of the concept of liberty or

2221
01:25:28,070 --> 01:25:25,280
anything else

2222
01:25:29,110 --> 01:25:28,080
that people don't agree about it see it

2223
01:25:35,430 --> 01:25:29,120
differently

2224
01:25:39,270 --> 01:25:35,440
that's what social life is in part a

2225
01:25:43,030 --> 01:25:39,280
struggle in which we all push

2226
01:25:46,070 --> 01:25:43,040
for whatever at those varying moments

2227
01:25:50,470 --> 01:25:46,080
shapes us as a desitorotime something

2228
01:25:52,390 --> 01:25:50,480
we would like to to push for

2229
01:25:53,350 --> 01:25:52,400
professor edward stewart i'm not sure if

2230
01:25:54,790 --> 01:25:53,360
you're familiar with him he's a

2231
01:25:57,030 --> 01:25:54,800
comparative economics professor at

2232
01:25:59,110 --> 01:25:57,040
northeastern illinois university

2233
01:26:01,750 --> 01:25:59,120
he said i have a question for richard

2234
01:26:05,910 --> 01:26:01,760
wolfe and he's a keynesian he's

2235
01:26:08,070 --> 01:26:05,920
okay he said biden wins what's the match

2236
01:26:09,669 --> 01:26:08,080
you can advise biden what specific

2237
01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:09,679
policy would you

2238
01:26:16,229 --> 01:26:13,040
like to see enacted i would advise him

2239
01:26:26,629 --> 01:26:18,950
okay your president what specific policy

2240
01:26:30,790 --> 01:26:29,510
i suppose i would go i would take my

2241
01:26:34,229 --> 01:26:30,800
clue

2242
01:26:38,390 --> 01:26:34,239
from uh bernie and

2243
01:26:41,990 --> 01:26:38,400
aoc and would enact a uh

2244
01:26:45,110 --> 01:26:42,000
a green new deal i would uh

2245
01:26:47,750 --> 01:26:45,120
enact a government hiring program

2246
01:26:49,990 --> 01:26:47,760
that would deal with our unemployment by

2247
01:26:51,910 --> 01:26:50,000
basically saying that anybody who lost a

2248
01:26:55,030 --> 01:26:51,920
job from a private employer

2249
01:26:57,430 --> 01:26:55,040
ipso facto now has a job

2250
01:26:59,030 --> 01:26:57,440
at at least equivalent pay from the

2251
01:27:01,750 --> 01:26:59,040
federal government

2252
01:27:03,189 --> 01:27:01,760
uh that would get us 20 30 40 million

2253
01:27:05,110 --> 01:27:03,199
depending on how you count

2254
01:27:07,030 --> 01:27:05,120
people who would now be a new labor

2255
01:27:08,390 --> 01:27:07,040
force for the government

2256
01:27:10,390 --> 01:27:08,400
they would not be governed by

2257
01:27:12,950 --> 01:27:10,400
profitability calculations

2258
01:27:15,350 --> 01:27:12,960
as private capitalists are they would do

2259
01:27:18,310 --> 01:27:15,360
what is socially useful

2260
01:27:20,310 --> 01:27:18,320
that would begin by testing everybody

2261
01:27:22,229 --> 01:27:20,320
for coronavirus

2262
01:27:23,430 --> 01:27:22,239
to determine what kind of strategic

2263
01:27:25,590 --> 01:27:23,440
public health

2264
01:27:27,750 --> 01:27:25,600
initiatives are necessary because that's

2265
01:27:30,550 --> 01:27:27,760
based on who has what disease

2266
01:27:32,310 --> 01:27:30,560
growing in what numbers in what regions

2267
01:27:34,070 --> 01:27:32,320
and that would employ millions of people

2268
01:27:37,189 --> 01:27:34,080
and the rest would be employed

2269
01:27:39,750 --> 01:27:37,199
on the kind of ecological new deal uh

2270
01:27:40,229 --> 01:27:39,760
and by the way this would simply be a

2271
01:27:43,910 --> 01:27:40,239
step

2272
01:27:45,830 --> 01:27:43,920
one in which we recoup and recuperate

2273
01:27:47,430 --> 01:27:45,840
the policies that worked well in the

2274
01:27:49,110 --> 01:27:47,440
great depression because that's the

2275
01:27:52,790 --> 01:27:49,120
situation we're in now

2276
01:27:56,390 --> 01:27:52,800
uh and make them uh the opening gun

2277
01:28:00,070 --> 01:27:56,400
and then i would because of me me

2278
01:28:03,270 --> 01:28:00,080
then i would turn to an enormous program

2279
01:28:06,470 --> 01:28:03,280
of uh the creation of a worker

2280
01:28:09,430 --> 01:28:06,480
co-op based sector of the american

2281
01:28:10,310 --> 01:28:09,440
economy why to give americans for the

2282
01:28:12,550 --> 01:28:10,320
first time

2283
01:28:14,550 --> 01:28:12,560
the knowledge with which to make a

2284
01:28:17,030 --> 01:28:14,560
freedom of choice

2285
01:28:18,310 --> 01:28:17,040
real they're going to be able to choose

2286
01:28:20,790 --> 01:28:18,320
between working in a

2287
01:28:21,510 --> 01:28:20,800
hierarchical top-down undemocratic

2288
01:28:25,590 --> 01:28:21,520
capitalist

2289
01:28:28,470 --> 01:28:25,600
enterprise or a democratic worker co-op

2290
01:28:30,629 --> 01:28:28,480
i would create through government steps

2291
01:28:33,990 --> 01:28:30,639
the kind of sector of the economy

2292
01:28:36,550 --> 01:28:34,000
that already exists in italy in italy if

2293
01:28:39,669 --> 01:28:36,560
you go to the province of amelia romagna

2294
01:28:41,910 --> 01:28:39,679
you will go to a place in italy

2295
01:28:42,790 --> 01:28:41,920
a province where 40 percent of the

2296
01:28:46,070 --> 01:28:42,800
industries

2297
01:28:48,390 --> 01:28:46,080
are organized as worker co-ops i would

2298
01:28:50,470 --> 01:28:48,400
replicate that in the united states

2299
01:28:53,189 --> 01:28:50,480
so that every let me finish that every

2300
01:28:54,870 --> 01:28:53,199
american would be able to know

2301
01:28:57,270 --> 01:28:54,880
because in his or her community or in

2302
01:28:57,669 --> 01:28:57,280
his or her family there's someone buying

2303
01:29:00,790 --> 01:28:57,679
from

2304
01:29:03,270 --> 01:29:00,800
or working in a worker co-op

2305
01:29:04,310 --> 01:29:03,280
democratic enterprise so everybody would

2306
01:29:07,350 --> 01:29:04,320
know what it

2307
01:29:09,430 --> 01:29:07,360
is like to work in and shop from

2308
01:29:11,830 --> 01:29:09,440
such an enterprise so that you could

2309
01:29:14,310 --> 01:29:11,840
choose in a rational way

2310
01:29:15,910 --> 01:29:14,320
what kind of economic system you want

2311
01:29:18,390 --> 01:29:15,920
you wanted half capitalist

2312
01:29:19,590 --> 01:29:18,400
half worker co-op two-thirds one-third

2313
01:29:22,790 --> 01:29:19,600
75

2314
01:29:24,470 --> 01:29:22,800
25 100 one-way let's see

2315
01:29:26,149 --> 01:29:24,480
let's put the whole question of the

2316
01:29:28,629 --> 01:29:26,159
economic system

2317
01:29:29,590 --> 01:29:28,639
to a democratic decision based on a

2318
01:29:31,990 --> 01:29:29,600
population

2319
01:29:33,350 --> 01:29:32,000
that has some idea of what the

2320
01:29:35,030 --> 01:29:33,360
alternative is

2321
01:29:37,189 --> 01:29:35,040
those are the kinds of steps i would

2322
01:29:41,189 --> 01:29:37,199
take i have no illusion

2323
01:29:43,990 --> 01:29:41,199
neither mr biden nor ms harris

2324
01:29:45,990 --> 01:29:44,000
have the idea the concept the capability

2325
01:29:49,189 --> 01:29:46,000
or any history enabling them

2326
01:29:52,390 --> 01:29:49,199
to do any of this so

2327
01:29:53,990 --> 01:29:52,400
one just a footnote to show you how the

2328
01:29:57,750 --> 01:29:54,000
world changes

2329
01:30:00,870 --> 01:29:57,760
kamala harris somewhere does have this

2330
01:30:04,070 --> 01:30:00,880
and the reason is her father

2331
01:30:07,270 --> 01:30:04,080
her father is a colleague of mine

2332
01:30:10,870 --> 01:30:07,280
her father thinks like i do

2333
01:30:12,390 --> 01:30:10,880
he's a marxist a marxist economics

2334
01:30:15,270 --> 01:30:12,400
professor

2335
01:30:17,350 --> 01:30:15,280
and he was at stanford for most of his

2336
01:30:20,790 --> 01:30:17,360
adult life

2337
01:30:23,669 --> 01:30:20,800
bringing it all the way around uh

2338
01:30:24,950 --> 01:30:23,679
nice so my question for you is what are

2339
01:30:28,310 --> 01:30:24,960
your thoughts on

2340
01:30:31,270 --> 01:30:28,320
uh quotas that help that are racially

2341
01:30:32,390 --> 01:30:31,280
or gender-based quotas to help correct

2342
01:30:35,030 --> 01:30:32,400
inequalities

2343
01:30:36,709 --> 01:30:35,040
do you think this is a viable strategy

2344
01:30:39,030 --> 01:30:36,719
two correct inequalities

2345
01:30:40,229 --> 01:30:39,040
well it should never have happened i

2346
01:30:40,870 --> 01:30:40,239
don't believe it could ever have

2347
01:30:45,430 --> 01:30:40,880
happened

2348
01:30:47,030 --> 01:30:45,440
the quote from the inequality both

2349
01:30:48,870 --> 01:30:47,040
but the quotas have been part of

2350
01:30:50,149 --> 01:30:48,880
american education

2351
01:30:52,950 --> 01:30:50,159
if you're talking about quarters in

2352
01:30:55,590 --> 01:30:52,960
education but for me quotas anyway

2353
01:30:56,390 --> 01:30:55,600
there's a fellow named will kim lika uh

2354
01:30:58,790 --> 01:30:56,400
who's

2355
01:31:00,709 --> 01:30:58,800
sort of the father of this sort of

2356
01:31:02,470 --> 01:31:00,719
statist version of multiculturalism

2357
01:31:03,669 --> 01:31:02,480
that's very popular here in canada i

2358
01:31:05,590 --> 01:31:03,679
believe he's the

2359
01:31:06,790 --> 01:31:05,600
dean of political science at queen's

2360
01:31:10,070 --> 01:31:06,800
university

2361
01:31:12,149 --> 01:31:10,080
and he's he advocates very much for uh

2362
01:31:14,229 --> 01:31:12,159
that style affirmative action but across

2363
01:31:16,629 --> 01:31:14,239
the board for all sectors

2364
01:31:19,430 --> 01:31:16,639
not all sectors but sort of replicating

2365
01:31:22,950 --> 01:31:19,440
and expanding that into other

2366
01:31:25,990 --> 01:31:22,960
let's say uh institutions yeah well

2367
01:31:28,629 --> 01:31:26,000
i may end up in the same place for me

2368
01:31:30,790 --> 01:31:28,639
the american education system just to

2369
01:31:34,149 --> 01:31:30,800
take that as an example

2370
01:31:37,350 --> 01:31:34,159
uh has been a quota governed system

2371
01:31:41,110 --> 01:31:37,360
from day one for me

2372
01:31:43,110 --> 01:31:41,120
capitalism is a quota based system

2373
01:31:44,629 --> 01:31:43,120
there's a quota on capitalists there's

2374
01:31:47,590 --> 01:31:44,639
only a certain number of them

2375
01:31:48,070 --> 01:31:47,600
and the rest of us get to be employees

2376
01:31:51,110 --> 01:31:48,080
who

2377
01:31:54,310 --> 01:31:51,120
are told what to do by quota is built

2378
01:31:55,669 --> 01:31:54,320
into this system and there's always been

2379
01:31:57,350 --> 01:31:55,679
quotas

2380
01:31:59,430 --> 01:31:57,360
you know it used to be that the quota

2381
01:32:00,790 --> 01:31:59,440
was you had to be white and male

2382
01:32:03,030 --> 01:32:00,800
and that was it you got into the

2383
01:32:03,830 --> 01:32:03,040
university and if you lacked either of

2384
01:32:05,910 --> 01:32:03,840
those two

2385
01:32:07,669 --> 01:32:05,920
there was a quota and your quota was

2386
01:32:09,110 --> 01:32:07,679
zero

2387
01:32:10,870 --> 01:32:09,120
and then if you made a lot of noise your

2388
01:32:13,590 --> 01:32:10,880
quarter would be two

2389
01:32:15,030 --> 01:32:13,600
you're talking unspoken quotes as

2390
01:32:16,310 --> 01:32:15,040
opposed to formal or are we talking

2391
01:32:20,149 --> 01:32:16,320
formal as well because the

2392
01:32:22,229 --> 01:32:20,159
neighborhoods used to have right now

2393
01:32:23,189 --> 01:32:22,239
yeah the quotas the quotas are on the

2394
01:32:26,149 --> 01:32:23,199
continuum

2395
01:32:27,590 --> 01:32:26,159
from formal written legal all the way

2396
01:32:30,870 --> 01:32:27,600
over to informal

2397
01:32:32,390 --> 01:32:30,880
illegal unspoken you know and everywhere

2398
01:32:34,229 --> 01:32:32,400
in between the quotas

2399
01:32:37,030 --> 01:32:34,239
but the quotas have always been there

2400
01:32:39,830 --> 01:32:37,040
however they have been construed

2401
01:32:40,709 --> 01:32:39,840
all that that the modern struggle over

2402
01:32:43,189 --> 01:32:40,719
quotas

2403
01:32:44,550 --> 01:32:43,199
uh seems to me to represent is the

2404
01:32:46,629 --> 01:32:44,560
determination

2405
01:32:48,149 --> 01:32:46,639
which has always happened to quotas that

2406
01:32:51,030 --> 01:32:48,159
sooner or later

2407
01:32:51,910 --> 01:32:51,040
as the society changes the quotas have

2408
01:32:54,470 --> 01:32:51,920
to change

2409
01:32:56,149 --> 01:32:54,480
because the relative size and strength

2410
01:32:59,350 --> 01:32:56,159
and political power

2411
01:33:00,709 --> 01:32:59,360
of the different quota groups alters

2412
01:33:03,189 --> 01:33:00,719
and sooner or later they're going to

2413
01:33:05,510 --> 01:33:03,199
want the quotas to reflect

2414
01:33:06,229 --> 01:33:05,520
what their social power or their social

2415
01:33:08,629 --> 01:33:06,239
position

2416
01:33:10,390 --> 01:33:08,639
or even their social consciousness tells

2417
01:33:12,550 --> 01:33:10,400
them is appropriate it's a little bit

2418
01:33:14,790 --> 01:33:12,560
like international treaties

2419
01:33:16,550 --> 01:33:14,800
they're always out of date about the

2420
01:33:18,629 --> 01:33:16,560
time they get signed

2421
01:33:21,590 --> 01:33:18,639
because the power relationships among

2422
01:33:23,990 --> 01:33:21,600
the countries that sign the agreement

2423
01:33:24,950 --> 01:33:24,000
changes and therefore it's only a matter

2424
01:33:27,669 --> 01:33:24,960
of time

2425
01:33:29,590 --> 01:33:27,679
before they want the documents governing

2426
01:33:32,790 --> 01:33:29,600
their international relations

2427
01:33:34,709 --> 01:33:32,800
to reflect the change in their actual

2428
01:33:37,270 --> 01:33:34,719
economic and political

2429
01:33:39,430 --> 01:33:37,280
statuses and i think that's what quota

2430
01:33:40,390 --> 01:33:39,440
struggles are about the african-american

2431
01:33:43,590 --> 01:33:40,400
community

2432
01:33:45,830 --> 01:33:43,600
wants to be let in and not blocked out

2433
01:33:48,229 --> 01:33:45,840
i understand that they were blocked out

2434
01:33:51,430 --> 01:33:48,239
for a very long time that quota was zero

2435
01:33:52,070 --> 01:33:51,440
or next to zero or or maybe zero plus a

2436
01:33:56,310 --> 01:33:52,080
few

2437
01:33:59,750 --> 01:33:56,320
um you know examples to look good but

2438
01:34:02,550 --> 01:33:59,760
they want a change across the board

2439
01:34:04,149 --> 01:34:02,560
in their exclusions which were always

2440
01:34:06,790 --> 01:34:04,159
kinds of quota system

2441
01:34:07,750 --> 01:34:06,800
and women want the same thing and latin

2442
01:34:11,189 --> 01:34:07,760
american uh

2443
01:34:13,590 --> 01:34:11,199
immigrant groups want the same thing

2444
01:34:14,709 --> 01:34:13,600
right i mean if you look at like the

2445
01:34:16,629 --> 01:34:14,719
history of the white flight right you

2446
01:34:23,189 --> 01:34:16,639
can look on the deeds to old houses and

2447
01:34:27,189 --> 01:34:24,470
in this country they were called

2448
01:34:28,950 --> 01:34:27,199
covenants all kinds of communities

2449
01:34:31,030 --> 01:34:28,960
did these things some of which had legal

2450
01:34:33,990 --> 01:34:31,040
status of covenants

2451
01:34:34,790 --> 01:34:34,000
in which uh a developer for example

2452
01:34:37,990 --> 01:34:34,800
would

2453
01:34:38,390 --> 01:34:38,000
require everybody who bought a home in

2454
01:34:41,830 --> 01:34:38,400
some

2455
01:34:44,950 --> 01:34:41,840
area to sign a document that he or she

2456
01:34:47,030 --> 01:34:44,960
would not sell it to a african-american

2457
01:34:48,070 --> 01:34:47,040
jew or that's horrible whatever it was

2458
01:34:51,030 --> 01:34:48,080
yeah and

2459
01:34:51,350 --> 01:34:51,040
my question is do we fight old quotas

2460
01:34:55,830 --> 01:34:51,360
with

2461
01:34:58,070 --> 01:34:55,840
new quotas no or do we get rid of voters

2462
01:34:59,590 --> 01:34:58,080
no my guess is the only way you can

2463
01:35:01,830 --> 01:34:59,600
fight an old quota

2464
01:35:02,790 --> 01:35:01,840
at this point given it's the depth of

2465
01:35:05,750 --> 01:35:02,800
its thing

2466
01:35:07,109 --> 01:35:05,760
is to do what you you can offer a no

2467
01:35:09,030 --> 01:35:07,119
quota system

2468
01:35:10,870 --> 01:35:09,040
but you can't deliver it so it's a bit

2469
01:35:13,189 --> 01:35:10,880
of a phony

2470
01:35:15,590 --> 01:35:13,199
because it's baked in it's cemented into

2471
01:35:18,550 --> 01:35:15,600
the system it operates on a thousand

2472
01:35:20,229 --> 01:35:18,560
levels that's i think what the phrase

2473
01:35:23,030 --> 01:35:20,239
systemic racism

2474
01:35:23,510 --> 01:35:23,040
is designed to gesture toward that it's

2475
01:35:26,790 --> 01:35:23,520
built

2476
01:35:30,470 --> 01:35:26,800
in on a general way across the system

2477
01:35:32,070 --> 01:35:30,480
and a change here or a a law

2478
01:35:34,390 --> 01:35:32,080
adjustment over there that's not going

2479
01:35:37,350 --> 01:35:34,400
to do it you've got too many things

2480
01:35:38,109 --> 01:35:37,360
that will get re-create let me put it

2481
01:35:40,950 --> 01:35:38,119
this way

2482
01:35:42,070 --> 01:35:40,960
reinstitute the effective quota that

2483
01:35:45,109 --> 01:35:42,080
existed before

2484
01:35:46,149 --> 01:35:45,119
even when you got rid of it here because

2485
01:35:48,550 --> 01:35:46,159
the forces

2486
01:35:50,070 --> 01:35:48,560
that made for those quotas haven't been

2487
01:35:53,270 --> 01:35:50,080
addressed

2488
01:35:55,189 --> 01:35:53,280
you know for sure for sure 100

2489
01:35:56,629 --> 01:35:55,199
i mean the idea of systemic racism is

2490
01:35:58,870 --> 01:35:56,639
that it goes so deep it

2491
01:36:00,950 --> 01:35:58,880
goes beyond just the formal state that

2492
01:36:01,990 --> 01:36:00,960
the informal power systems that we have

2493
01:36:05,030 --> 01:36:02,000
in our society

2494
01:36:07,990 --> 01:36:05,040
that embed that ideology but at

2495
01:36:10,229 --> 01:36:08,000
the end of the day do we have say

2496
01:36:13,590 --> 01:36:10,239
something like a formal quota like

2497
01:36:19,430 --> 01:36:17,669
well for me i don't think that works

2498
01:36:21,109 --> 01:36:19,440
i'm not against it but i don't think

2499
01:36:24,709 --> 01:36:21,119
that solves the problem

2500
01:36:25,270 --> 01:36:24,719
and i i tend to be critical because i

2501
01:36:27,990 --> 01:36:25,280
see it

2502
01:36:29,189 --> 01:36:28,000
as a way of kicking the proverbial can

2503
01:36:31,350 --> 01:36:29,199
down the road okay

2504
01:36:33,750 --> 01:36:31,360
we're going to now have x percent of

2505
01:36:36,149 --> 01:36:33,760
these that's not going to change

2506
01:36:37,430 --> 01:36:36,159
you know what is fundamentally going on

2507
01:36:39,750 --> 01:36:37,440
in this society

2508
01:36:40,629 --> 01:36:39,760
i would rather go at it from the

2509
01:36:43,030 --> 01:36:40,639
systemic

2510
01:36:44,070 --> 01:36:43,040
change if we agree that there is

2511
01:36:49,030 --> 01:36:44,080
systemic

2512
01:36:50,790 --> 01:36:49,040
is

2513
01:36:52,310 --> 01:36:50,800
let's deal with the system that

2514
01:36:54,790 --> 01:36:52,320
supposedly underlie

2515
01:36:55,350 --> 01:36:54,800
what would it mean for example that if

2516
01:36:58,709 --> 01:36:55,360
that you

2517
01:37:00,149 --> 01:36:58,719
made it a fundamental right of everyone

2518
01:37:03,109 --> 01:37:00,159
in the united states

2519
01:37:04,470 --> 01:37:03,119
to have a job to have the job pay no

2520
01:37:07,350 --> 01:37:04,480
less than

2521
01:37:08,310 --> 01:37:07,360
80 percent of the median wage in this

2522
01:37:10,790 --> 01:37:08,320
country

2523
01:37:11,590 --> 01:37:10,800
and that everybody is entitled to proper

2524
01:37:14,390 --> 01:37:11,600
housing

2525
01:37:15,109 --> 01:37:14,400
that has to be at least x square feet

2526
01:37:17,830 --> 01:37:15,119
per purse

2527
01:37:19,109 --> 01:37:17,840
i mean suppose you really began to deal

2528
01:37:21,270 --> 01:37:19,119
with the quality

2529
01:37:22,709 --> 01:37:21,280
of the job and the quality of the income

2530
01:37:24,149 --> 01:37:22,719
and the quality of the housing

2531
01:37:26,790 --> 01:37:24,159
and the quality of the neighborhood

2532
01:37:27,430 --> 01:37:26,800
services begin to say to everybody we

2533
01:37:30,790 --> 01:37:27,440
really

2534
01:37:35,030 --> 01:37:30,800
are a society that does not

2535
01:37:35,669 --> 01:37:35,040
allow a ghetto over here a ghetto over

2536
01:37:38,629 --> 01:37:35,679
there

2537
01:37:39,189 --> 01:37:38,639
uh whole industries that are female

2538
01:37:40,709 --> 01:37:39,199
versus

2539
01:37:42,870 --> 01:37:40,719
industries that are male and all the

2540
01:37:45,830 --> 01:37:42,880
rest that we know exists

2541
01:37:46,629 --> 01:37:45,840
if we don't do those basic changes the

2542
01:37:50,950 --> 01:37:46,639
rest of it

2543
01:37:54,390 --> 01:37:50,960
strikes me as substitution for solution

2544
01:37:54,790 --> 01:37:54,400
not solution well it was stalin who said

2545
01:37:57,830 --> 01:37:54,800
that

2546
01:38:00,629 --> 01:37:57,840
quantity has a quality of its own yes

2547
01:38:01,990 --> 01:38:00,639
you know yeah well he that's where you

2548
01:38:04,550 --> 01:38:02,000
begin to get

2549
01:38:07,030 --> 01:38:04,560
the hegelian the brilliance of what

2550
01:38:08,950 --> 01:38:07,040
hegel did why hegel becomes the great

2551
01:38:10,310 --> 01:38:08,960
thinker for all of europe in the 19th

2552
01:38:13,830 --> 01:38:10,320
century everything in europe

2553
01:38:17,030 --> 01:38:13,840
that happens starting around you know

2554
01:38:17,669 --> 01:38:17,040
1810 or 1820 everything is derivative of

2555
01:38:20,229 --> 01:38:17,679
hegel

2556
01:38:21,990 --> 01:38:20,239
the influence is overwhelming and and by

2557
01:38:23,109 --> 01:38:22,000
the way in most countries this is kind

2558
01:38:25,910 --> 01:38:23,119
of grasped

2559
01:38:26,950 --> 01:38:25,920
in the united states of course not

2560
01:38:29,430 --> 01:38:26,960
because

2561
01:38:29,990 --> 01:38:29,440
they are so irony is the association of

2562
01:38:34,550 --> 01:38:30,000
marks with

2563
01:38:38,149 --> 01:38:34,560
hagel also condemned poor hegel

2564
01:38:40,550 --> 01:38:38,159
to be ignored too maybe

2565
01:38:41,669 --> 01:38:40,560
i once gave a talk at yale to a

2566
01:38:46,070 --> 01:38:41,679
philosophy

2567
01:38:48,390 --> 01:38:46,080
seminar where i tried to explain

2568
01:38:49,669 --> 01:38:48,400
why students interested in hegel and

2569
01:38:52,790 --> 01:38:49,679
there were a few

2570
01:38:55,510 --> 01:38:52,800
despite the department's hostility

2571
01:38:57,030 --> 01:38:55,520
why they should be interested in marx

2572
01:38:59,750 --> 01:38:57,040
and they were terrified

2573
01:39:01,430 --> 01:38:59,760
by the way they were terrified it was

2574
01:39:04,070 --> 01:39:01,440
another example of what i began

2575
01:39:05,270 --> 01:39:04,080
our conversation with the anxiety of

2576
01:39:07,270 --> 01:39:05,280
association

2577
01:39:08,950 --> 01:39:07,280
you get anywhere near this marxian

2578
01:39:11,669 --> 01:39:08,960
paradigm and you know

2579
01:39:12,550 --> 01:39:11,679
like a child with a hot stove keep your

2580
01:39:15,510 --> 01:39:12,560
fingers

2581
01:39:17,430 --> 01:39:15,520
away but they didn't want to go anywhere

2582
01:39:20,229 --> 01:39:17,440
near marx even though marx talks at

2583
01:39:23,270 --> 01:39:20,239
great length about his hegelian heritage

2584
01:39:24,229 --> 01:39:23,280
what it was what was important about

2585
01:39:28,229 --> 01:39:24,239
hegel what was

2586
01:39:30,550 --> 01:39:28,239
buried in capital from hegel and and

2587
01:39:31,910 --> 01:39:30,560
said really and this notion of

2588
01:39:35,350 --> 01:39:31,920
contradiction

2589
01:39:38,229 --> 01:39:35,360
and this notion that that that

2590
01:39:38,870 --> 01:39:38,239
things don't exist versus don't not

2591
01:39:43,990 --> 01:39:38,880
exist

2592
01:39:46,390 --> 01:39:44,000
two sides of the same thing

2593
01:39:47,830 --> 01:39:46,400
just and where that leads you and what

2594
01:39:51,510 --> 01:39:47,840
that opens up is so

2595
01:39:54,629 --> 01:39:51,520
sad that americans you know don't get it

2596
01:39:56,629 --> 01:39:54,639
it just closes off like the like the

2597
01:40:00,070 --> 01:39:56,639
paranoia about marxism

2598
01:40:03,189 --> 01:40:00,080
it closes off vast realms of

2599
01:40:06,950 --> 01:40:03,199
knowledge for no reason at

2600
01:40:09,910 --> 01:40:06,960
all other than to pander to a short-term

2601
01:40:11,109 --> 01:40:09,920
political narrative from people they

2602
01:40:15,189 --> 01:40:11,119
don't respect

2603
01:40:18,629 --> 01:40:16,790
how does the contradiction in the

2604
01:40:20,470 --> 01:40:18,639
hegelian sense not lead to the principle

2605
01:40:21,750 --> 01:40:20,480
of explosion

2606
01:40:22,950 --> 01:40:21,760
i don't know what the principle of

2607
01:40:24,470 --> 01:40:22,960
experience so that is from any

2608
01:40:27,430 --> 01:40:24,480
contradiction you can derive

2609
01:40:29,270 --> 01:40:27,440
whatever fact you like unless the proper

2610
01:40:30,790 --> 01:40:29,280
term is to call it a hegelian paradox

2611
01:40:32,390 --> 01:40:30,800
which is like an apparent contradiction

2612
01:40:35,910 --> 01:40:32,400
it's not a true contradiction

2613
01:40:36,229 --> 01:40:35,920
a and not a the hegelian notion is that

2614
01:40:43,430 --> 01:40:36,239
a

2615
01:40:46,709 --> 01:40:43,440
of both sides

2616
01:40:49,350 --> 01:40:46,719
so that not a is a property of a

2617
01:40:50,870 --> 01:40:49,360
and vice versa that's my understanding

2618
01:40:53,910 --> 01:40:50,880
of hegel's notion

2619
01:40:57,109 --> 01:40:53,920
so our we can't conceptualize

2620
01:41:00,310 --> 01:40:57,119
our life without conceptualizing

2621
01:41:03,189 --> 01:41:00,320
our death our life is bounded

2622
01:41:05,590 --> 01:41:03,199
by our death and that makes death part

2623
01:41:08,550 --> 01:41:05,600
of life and vice versa

2624
01:41:10,550 --> 01:41:08,560
that for me that's what the hegelian

2625
01:41:13,830 --> 01:41:10,560
notion of contradiction

2626
01:41:15,350 --> 01:41:13,840
uh involves and it means that everything

2627
01:41:18,470 --> 01:41:15,360
that exists

2628
01:41:19,030 --> 01:41:18,480
is in the process of not existing it has

2629
01:41:27,350 --> 01:41:19,040
its own

2630
01:41:29,990 --> 01:41:27,360
flying through the air

2631
01:41:30,950 --> 01:41:30,000
where is it and the answer is it's

2632
01:41:34,149 --> 01:41:30,960
always

2633
01:41:36,470 --> 01:41:34,159
where it is but in its movement it's not

2634
01:41:38,629 --> 01:41:36,480
where it is

2635
01:41:39,830 --> 01:41:38,639
okay i know that you've been extremely

2636
01:41:42,310 --> 01:41:39,840
generous with your time

2637
01:41:44,310 --> 01:41:42,320
i have while i got you i got some labor

2638
01:41:46,709 --> 01:41:44,320
theory value questions quick okay

2639
01:41:48,629 --> 01:41:46,719
i i i have another five minutes then i

2640
01:41:52,390 --> 01:41:48,639
have to go that's fine totally fine

2641
01:41:54,870 --> 01:41:52,400
okay if you want we can do this again

2642
01:41:56,629 --> 01:41:54,880
thank you so much i appreciate it i want

2643
01:41:57,030 --> 01:41:56,639
to call you richie most people call me

2644
01:42:01,990 --> 01:41:57,040
rick

2645
01:42:06,229 --> 01:42:04,310
the problem i have with the surplus well

2646
01:42:08,709 --> 01:42:06,239
why don't you quickly quickly outline to

2647
01:42:10,870 --> 01:42:08,719
the audience the labor theory of value

2648
01:42:12,709 --> 01:42:10,880
very quickly in simplest terms when you

2649
01:42:13,990 --> 01:42:12,719
sit down with an employer

2650
01:42:16,070 --> 01:42:14,000
and you have a conversation about

2651
01:42:16,950 --> 01:42:16,080
getting a job here's how the

2652
01:42:19,189 --> 01:42:16,960
conversation

2653
01:42:20,950 --> 01:42:19,199
basically goes here's what you're going

2654
01:42:22,870 --> 01:42:20,960
to be asked to do come at nine

2655
01:42:25,910 --> 01:42:22,880
leave at five sit over there work with

2656
01:42:27,750 --> 01:42:25,920
this machine do this work

2657
01:42:29,669 --> 01:42:27,760
why are you there because i already have

2658
01:42:31,350 --> 01:42:29,679
a bunch of machines and i have an office

2659
01:42:32,070 --> 01:42:31,360
and i have a factory and i have a bunch

2660
01:42:35,350 --> 01:42:32,080
of workers

2661
01:42:38,229 --> 01:42:35,360
i'm adding you to all of that

2662
01:42:39,350 --> 01:42:38,239
and i'm doing that because by adding you

2663
01:42:42,149 --> 01:42:39,360
i can improve

2664
01:42:42,870 --> 01:42:42,159
either the quality or the quantity or

2665
01:42:45,510 --> 01:42:42,880
both

2666
01:42:47,590 --> 01:42:45,520
of the outputs the goods and services

2667
01:42:51,669 --> 01:42:47,600
that this enterprise is committed

2668
01:42:54,790 --> 01:42:51,679
to producing so by virtue of adding you

2669
01:42:58,550 --> 01:42:54,800
i'm gonna have x more

2670
01:43:01,669 --> 01:42:58,560
product to sell let's assume

2671
01:43:04,390 --> 01:43:01,679
that that's worth a hundred bucks

2672
01:43:05,590 --> 01:43:04,400
so now the question is what am i going

2673
01:43:09,030 --> 01:43:05,600
to pay you

2674
01:43:10,870 --> 01:43:09,040
to come and do this work

2675
01:43:12,550 --> 01:43:10,880
well the answer is i'm going to do a

2676
01:43:14,709 --> 01:43:12,560
little calculation

2677
01:43:16,390 --> 01:43:14,719
i'm going to count up the extra raw

2678
01:43:18,629 --> 01:43:16,400
materials and tools

2679
01:43:21,590 --> 01:43:18,639
that are going to be used up in making

2680
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:21,600
the extra 100 bucks worth of output

2681
01:43:25,910 --> 01:43:24,800
let's say that's 20 bucks okay now i

2682
01:43:28,070 --> 01:43:25,920
know what i got

2683
01:43:29,750 --> 01:43:28,080
i'm gonna have a hundred bucks output

2684
01:43:31,990 --> 01:43:29,760
i'm gonna have to spend 20 bucks of

2685
01:43:35,270 --> 01:43:32,000
tools equipment and raw materials

2686
01:43:37,030 --> 01:43:35,280
that leaves me 80 bucks how much am i

2687
01:43:40,550 --> 01:43:37,040
going to pay you

2688
01:43:43,830 --> 01:43:40,560
answer something less than 80 bucks

2689
01:43:47,350 --> 01:43:43,840
i'm gonna pay you 50 bucks

2690
01:43:49,189 --> 01:43:47,360
why because by paying you 50 bucks

2691
01:43:51,430 --> 01:43:49,199
and using up to 20 bucks of tools

2692
01:43:54,790 --> 01:43:51,440
equipment and raw materials

2693
01:43:59,350 --> 01:43:54,800
i will have 70 bucks of cost

2694
01:44:02,390 --> 01:43:59,360
for a 100 output the difference between

2695
01:44:05,669 --> 01:44:02,400
what i pay you and what i

2696
01:44:08,229 --> 01:44:05,679
sell the product for that's the surplus

2697
01:44:10,310 --> 01:44:08,239
you've produced it by your labor because

2698
01:44:13,510 --> 01:44:10,320
otherwise i couldn't produce it

2699
01:44:15,590 --> 01:44:13,520
i don't do anything you do the work i

2700
01:44:18,629 --> 01:44:15,600
sit there stare at you

2701
01:44:22,070 --> 01:44:18,639
you do the work you produce more

2702
01:44:24,229 --> 01:44:22,080
than you get for doing it

2703
01:44:25,510 --> 01:44:24,239
the difference between what i pay you

2704
01:44:28,390 --> 01:44:25,520
what marx calls

2705
01:44:29,830 --> 01:44:28,400
the value of your labor power and the

2706
01:44:32,830 --> 01:44:29,840
value that your labor

2707
01:44:34,149 --> 01:44:32,840
creates in that difference is the

2708
01:44:37,270 --> 01:44:34,159
surplus

2709
01:44:40,870 --> 01:44:37,280
and every worker in capitalism

2710
01:44:42,070 --> 01:44:40,880
knows it you know when you sit with the

2711
01:44:45,270 --> 01:44:42,080
employer

2712
01:44:49,189 --> 01:44:45,280
that the only way you would ever

2713
01:44:49,990 --> 01:44:49,199
be paid anything a million dollars an

2714
01:44:54,790 --> 01:44:50,000
hour

2715
01:44:57,830 --> 01:44:54,800
you're going to get that money

2716
01:45:01,750 --> 01:44:57,840
is if hiring you brings him more

2717
01:45:04,310 --> 01:45:01,760
value than it costs him to hire you

2718
01:45:04,950 --> 01:45:04,320
because if it didn't he wouldn't hire

2719
01:45:08,149 --> 01:45:04,960
you

2720
01:45:11,189 --> 01:45:08,159
not

2721
01:45:13,109 --> 01:45:11,199
even then okay great summation

2722
01:45:15,350 --> 01:45:13,119
and the existence of the surplus is what

2723
01:45:17,430 --> 01:45:15,360
equals exploitation

2724
01:45:18,390 --> 01:45:17,440
no exploitation means that there's a

2725
01:45:21,590 --> 01:45:18,400
surplus

2726
01:45:23,270 --> 01:45:21,600
appropriated by a person different from

2727
01:45:27,109 --> 01:45:23,280
the person who produced it

2728
01:45:29,830 --> 01:45:27,119
it's not exploitation okay okay cool

2729
01:45:30,310 --> 01:45:29,840
i've paid people i've paid people and

2730
01:45:31,590 --> 01:45:30,320
made

2731
01:45:33,590 --> 01:45:31,600
nothing the reason why i don't think

2732
01:45:34,870 --> 01:45:33,600
that this i have some issues the reason

2733
01:45:36,310 --> 01:45:34,880
why is because i don't think the surplus

2734
01:45:37,030 --> 01:45:36,320
or the labor theory of value takes into

2735
01:45:39,109 --> 01:45:37,040
account hope

2736
01:45:40,229 --> 01:45:39,119
or uncertainty but i'm sure it does like

2737
01:45:43,350 --> 01:45:40,239
i'm just a ruminantary

2738
01:45:45,510 --> 01:45:43,360
man okay i've paid people

2739
01:45:47,430 --> 01:45:45,520
and made nothing because i hoped that i

2740
01:45:51,350 --> 01:45:47,440
would make something from them

2741
01:45:53,430 --> 01:45:51,360
so who was being exploited there

2742
01:45:55,350 --> 01:45:53,440
it had nothing to do with hope you hoped

2743
01:45:57,590 --> 01:45:55,360
that you would make money

2744
01:45:58,550 --> 01:45:57,600
your employee hoped that you would make

2745
01:46:01,189 --> 01:45:58,560
money

2746
01:46:03,189 --> 01:46:01,199
because the employee has hope too hoping

2747
01:46:04,950 --> 01:46:03,199
not to lose the freaking job

2748
01:46:07,189 --> 01:46:04,960
hope that he didn't move his family from

2749
01:46:08,870 --> 01:46:07,199
timbuktu to wherever you are

2750
01:46:09,990 --> 01:46:08,880
and we'll have to move him again hope

2751
01:46:11,430 --> 01:46:10,000
that he doesn't have to yank his

2752
01:46:14,229 --> 01:46:11,440
teenager out of school

2753
01:46:14,629 --> 01:46:14,239
everybody's full of hope the difference

2754
01:46:24,310 --> 01:46:14,639
is

2755
01:46:26,790 --> 01:46:24,320
he took your job he could have taken

2756
01:46:27,350 --> 01:46:26,800
another job he moved to that town to get

2757
01:46:30,310 --> 01:46:27,360
the jar

2758
01:46:31,590 --> 01:46:30,320
he took all kinds of risks only he has

2759
01:46:35,189 --> 01:46:31,600
no control

2760
01:46:37,669 --> 01:46:35,199
over how the risk he took works out

2761
01:46:38,310 --> 01:46:37,679
you have all the control not only over

2762
01:46:51,430 --> 01:46:38,320
the risk

2763
01:46:52,709 --> 01:46:51,440
that you'll fire him because you'll find

2764
01:46:55,750 --> 01:46:52,719
something else

2765
01:46:56,470 --> 01:46:55,760
that attracts your risk taking more i

2766
01:46:58,629 --> 01:46:56,480
mean

2767
01:46:59,510 --> 01:46:58,639
the degree of risk taking it the burden

2768
01:47:02,310 --> 01:46:59,520
is on him

2769
01:47:03,350 --> 01:47:02,320
not you only capitalists would have

2770
01:47:06,070 --> 01:47:03,360
imagined

2771
01:47:07,189 --> 01:47:06,080
the lopsided notion that because they

2772
01:47:09,030 --> 01:47:07,199
take a risk

2773
01:47:11,750 --> 01:47:09,040
and they don't want to understand what a

2774
01:47:14,790 --> 01:47:11,760
worker does when he or she takes a job

2775
01:47:16,629 --> 01:47:14,800
that they're the only risk taker

2776
01:47:18,070 --> 01:47:16,639
wouldn't it be more accurate to say both

2777
01:47:21,109 --> 01:47:18,080
people take risks

2778
01:47:27,430 --> 01:47:21,119
them

2779
01:47:29,590 --> 01:47:27,440
he's not stable if you don't get the

2780
01:47:32,470 --> 01:47:29,600
satisfaction from the risk you've taken

2781
01:47:33,350 --> 01:47:32,480
if for whatever reason you don't like

2782
01:47:34,709 --> 01:47:33,360
this job

2783
01:47:37,109 --> 01:47:34,719
you think you can make more money

2784
01:47:38,229 --> 01:47:37,119
somewhere else he's taking the writ

2785
01:47:40,310 --> 01:47:38,239
you'll fire him

2786
01:47:42,229 --> 01:47:40,320
he can't even be sure that if he does

2787
01:47:44,470 --> 01:47:42,239
his job and you make money

2788
01:47:45,750 --> 01:47:44,480
you'll keep him on the job you may fire

2789
01:47:47,990 --> 01:47:45,760
him for someone else

2790
01:47:50,149 --> 01:47:48,000
all the risks is overwhelmingly on his

2791
01:47:52,790 --> 01:47:50,159
side i know let me let me push

2792
01:47:54,390 --> 01:47:52,800
please and correct me because okay i

2793
01:47:56,629 --> 01:47:54,400
have a contract with him and he's like

2794
01:47:58,070 --> 01:47:56,639
three months so you're secure in your

2795
01:48:00,550 --> 01:47:58,080
three-month pay

2796
01:48:01,270 --> 01:48:00,560
you get to work 40 hours a week at this

2797
01:48:03,750 --> 01:48:01,280
at 20

2798
01:48:05,189 --> 01:48:03,760
an hour for three months but i am

2799
01:48:06,550 --> 01:48:05,199
assuming the risk because i don't know

2800
01:48:07,750 --> 01:48:06,560
yeah if you're gonna that's wrong too

2801
01:48:09,109 --> 01:48:07,760
and i'll explain to you but then i have

2802
01:48:10,629 --> 01:48:09,119
to cut off because i have somewhere i've

2803
01:48:14,390 --> 01:48:10,639
got to be at 11. yeah

2804
01:48:16,950 --> 01:48:14,400
okay here it is um less than seven

2805
01:48:19,510 --> 01:48:16,960
percent of american workers today are

2806
01:48:20,629 --> 01:48:19,520
in the private sector are governed by a

2807
01:48:22,709 --> 01:48:20,639
trade union

2808
01:48:23,750 --> 01:48:22,719
that protects them with a legal contract

2809
01:48:26,070 --> 01:48:23,760
so in fact

2810
01:48:26,870 --> 01:48:26,080
you can fire a person no matter how many

2811
01:48:29,510 --> 01:48:26,880
months

2812
01:48:30,149 --> 01:48:29,520
you have worked out with him at no legal

2813
01:48:31,830 --> 01:48:30,159
risk

2814
01:48:33,669 --> 01:48:31,840
the person who works in the private

2815
01:48:36,790 --> 01:48:33,679
sector in the united states today

2816
01:48:38,390 --> 01:48:36,800
assumes all the freaking risk

2817
01:48:40,070 --> 01:48:38,400
you could be told to work in a different

2818
01:48:41,030 --> 01:48:40,080
way you can be told to work in a

2819
01:48:43,350 --> 01:48:41,040
different space

2820
01:48:45,590 --> 01:48:43,360
you can be told to suffer this kind of

2821
01:48:48,310 --> 01:48:45,600
quality air that kind of quality water

2822
01:48:51,189 --> 01:48:48,320
and you can be fired at any moment all

2823
01:48:55,109 --> 01:48:51,199
the risk is in the part of the employee

2824
01:48:58,149 --> 01:48:55,119
but he has no power you assume a risk

2825
01:48:58,950 --> 01:48:58,159
and you have power to determine how how

2826
01:49:01,990 --> 01:48:58,960
to pursue

2827
01:49:02,950 --> 01:49:02,000
this risk how to react to changing

2828
01:49:05,669 --> 01:49:02,960
circumstances

2829
01:49:06,709 --> 01:49:05,679
in this risk and how to utilize the

2830
01:49:09,590 --> 01:49:06,719
rewards

2831
01:49:10,550 --> 01:49:09,600
if your risk taking paid off i

2832
01:49:13,510 --> 01:49:10,560
understand

2833
01:49:15,270 --> 01:49:13,520
you take some risk but the notion that

2834
01:49:16,709 --> 01:49:15,280
you're the only you the capitalist or

2835
01:49:20,310 --> 01:49:16,719
the only one

2836
01:49:23,350 --> 01:49:20,320
is a kind of solipsistic conceit

2837
01:49:24,149 --> 01:49:23,360
that really blows my mind but look i do

2838
01:49:26,629 --> 01:49:24,159
have to go

2839
01:49:27,990 --> 01:49:26,639
i appreciate this send me a link if you

2840
01:49:30,709 --> 01:49:28,000
want to do it again

2841
01:49:31,030 --> 01:49:30,719
get in touch thank you so much sir all

2842
01:49:34,070 --> 01:49:31,040
right